As we head into the next presidential election you'll notice that the pitch, the pause, the rise and fall of a leader’s voice captures hearts and minds just as effectively—if not more so—than the words themselves.
As I’ve noted before, “The way you sound has a profound impact on how your message is received, often more so than the content of the message itself.”Do You Sound Like a Leader? explores this in greater detail.
As we look at the vocal delivery styles of 2024 presidential candidates Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, we find that the way a leader speaks can profoundly shape public perception. For leaders, experts, and entrepreneurs, understanding this dynamic can be the key to leading effectively and making your voice heard.
The Science of Persuasion: Why Vocal Qualities Matter
Sure, content is king. But the crown jewels? They’re all in the delivery. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence psychology, points out that authority and likability are key factors in persuasion—and these often hinge on how a message is delivered. As Cialdini explains, “We are more likely to be influenced by people who are authoritative, who appear credible and knowledgeable, regardless of the content of their message.” A deep, resonant voice doesn’t just sound good; it signals authority, commanding respect and attention before a leader even gets to the meat of their message.
Lee Hartley Carter, a renowned strategist and author of Persuasion: Convincing Others When Facts Don’t Seem to Matter, has spent years advising Fortune 500 companies and political campaigns on the art of effective communication. Her work highlights the critical role that emotional resonance and authenticity play in leadership. According to Carter, a voice that truly connects with listeners can make all the difference in persuasion. And let’s be honest, we’ve all been in meetings where the speaker’s monotone droning put us on a one-way trip to Snoozeville. But with the right vocal techniques, you can keep your audience engaged and attentive.
When a leader modulates their voice—using strategic pauses, varying their pitch, and adjusting their pacing—they’re not just holding attention; they’re shaping perceptions. A well-timed pause can create anticipation and emphasize a point, while variations in tone can keep the audience emotionally connected. Sometimes, how you say something lands more impactfully than what you say.
With these foundational ideas in mind, let’s explore how current leaders like Donald Trump and Kamala Harris use their vocal delivery to influence public perception.
Trump vs. Harris: A Vocal Showdown
The 2024 presidential race isn’t just a clash of ideologies—it’s a vocal duel. Donald Trump continues to wield his voice like a weapon, with his recent speech at the 2024 CPAC showcasing his signature assertive tone. As he declared, “We will take back the White House,” his booming voice was designed to project strength and determination to his base. It’s no wonder Trump’s rallies and speeches still feel like rock concerts—he’s mastered the art of keeping the audience on their feet, even if it’s with the same chorus repeated a dozen times. But as The Washington Post pointed out in 2019, while Trump’s “booming and relentless” tone solidifies his image as a strong leader, it’s also divisive. To some, his aggressive style comes off as bullying, deepening the divide between his supporters and detractors.
On the other side of the vocal spectrum is Kamala Harris. Her speech on gun violence prevention in June 2023 is a prime example of her calm, deliberate, and empathetic tone. Harris’s voice flowed with measured cadence, her empathetic tone wrapping around each word like a warm embrace—inviting listeners in rather than overwhelming them. During this speech, her deliberate pauses and slower pace were used to emphasize the gravity of the topic, resonating deeply with her audience. However, Harris faces a different set of challenges—particularly gender biases. As The New York Times explored in 2023, Harris’s vocal delivery is often judged against traditional gender expectations. Some praise her composed demeanor, while others criticize her for lacking the forcefulness they expect from a leader—especially when compared to male counterparts like Trump. This bias reflects broader societal expectations, where women leaders are often caught in a double bind: be too soft, and you’re weak; too strong, and you’re shrill.
Critical Thinking: Separating Content from Delivery
So, how can you navigate the nuances of vocal delivery without getting swayed by style over substance? Here are some tips:
Focus on the Content: Pay close attention to the actual message. Is the candidate backing up their claims with facts? Are they providing clear, logical arguments, or are they relying on emotional appeals and repetition to fill the gaps?
Beware of Emotional Manipulation: Notice when a speaker uses tone and inflection to play on your emotions. While emotions are a powerful communication tool, they shouldn’t replace rational analysis. As Lee Hartley Carter notes, “The leaders who resonate most emotionally with their audience are those who can authentically project the emotions that match their message. It’s not just what they say, but how they make people feel.” Ask yourself if the emotional tone aligns with the facts presented. How to Free Yourself from Emotional Velcro and Create Psychological Safety in the Workplace offers insights on managing emotional responses effectively.
Consider the Whole Picture: Vocal qualities can enhance or distort a candidate’s perceived credibility. Look beyond the delivery to assess their track record, policies, and actions.
Check Your Biases: Be mindful of unconscious biases that might affect how you perceive a candidate’s voice. Gender, race, and other factors can shape our perceptions of leadership qualities in ways we might not even realize.
Diversify Your Sources: Engage with a range of news outlets and analyses to get a balanced view. Different perspectives can help you see beyond any single source’s bias and get a fuller picture of the candidate’s platform and delivery.
Next time you hear a political speech, ask yourself: Are you being swayed by the logic of the argument, or is the speaker’s tone doing most of the work? How does the delivery shape your perception? By sharpening these critical thinking skills, you can better discern the substance behind a candidate’s words, making informed choices that go beyond surface-level impressions.
Summary and Takeaways
In leadership, how you say something can be as important—if not more so—than what you say. As we’ve seen with Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, vocal qualities significantly influence public perception, with societal biases adding another layer of complexity, particularly regarding gender. But by honing critical thinking skills and staying mindful of the difference between content and delivery, we can navigate these complexities and make more informed decisions. As the 2024 election approaches, let’s listen not just to the words our leaders speak, but to how they speak them. After all, it’s not just about sounding persuasive—it’s about leading with integrity. For more on this, see Strengthening Your Voice of Leadership in Uncertain Times.
And as we continue to explore the power of voice, whether in leadership or in technology like AI audiobooks, it’s clear that how we communicate can make all the difference.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
Connecting With People Through the Power of Audiobooks
How are you getting your audience’s attention?
As you know, content is everywhere and the demands for attention are higher every day.
It’s easy for even the most compelling messages to get lost in the noise.
It’s critical to cut through the clutter and truly connect with your audience on a deeper, more personal level.
This is where the benefits of audiobooks now truly shine…
Audiobooks aren’t just a “format;” they’re an intimate experience that brings your words to life. When your voice tells your story, it’s not just heard—it’s felt. The cadence, the emotion, the subtle inflections—they all add layers of meaning that deepen the connection between you and your listener.
It’s an opportunity for deeper connection through content than nearly any other type of content that you will invest your time in creating.
Your message is more than just words on a page; it’s a reflection of your passion, your expertise, and your vision. When you translate that into an audiobook, you’re not just sharing information—you’re forging a connection.
So why aren’t more people producing audiobooks?
There are a few common issues and misconceptions we hear when talking with authors, publishers, editors and book coaches.
Misconception 1: Audiobooks Won’t Reach My Audience
Many authors underestimate the reach and influence of audiobooks. They think that their audience prefers physical books or eBooks and that producing an audiobook won’t add much value. But the truth is, audiobooks have steadily grown in popularity over the years.
52% of all U.S. adults have listened to an audiobook in their lifetime, and in 2023, revenue increased by 9% to $2 billion, according to the Audio Publishers Association.
Moreover, audiobooks can expand your reach to people with disabilities or those who prefer auditory learning. For many, reading can be a challenge due to visual impairments or dyslexia. Audiobooks offer an inclusive way for these individuals to enjoy your work without barriers.
By not offering an audiobook, you could be missing out on connecting with a whole segment of your audience who prefers consuming content in this format.
Misconception 2: Audiobooks Now Aren’t a Good Investment
Another common misconception is that producing audiobooks now requires a costly investment with little return. However, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Audiobooks can dramatically increase your audience, influence, and income. An audiobook has the potential to generate revenue indefinitely. Plus, with platforms like Audible, Google Play, Apple Books, and even Spotify, it’s easier than ever to distribute your audiobook to a global audience.
Authors are often surprised to learn that they don’t have to give away their royalties or go through a complicated process to see a return on their investment. The key is to work with an experienced team that understands how to navigate the audiobook market effectively.
Misconception 3: Audiobook Production is Complicated and Time-Consuming
Perhaps the most common reason authors hesitate to create an audiobook is the belief that it’s a complicated, time-consuming process. Many authors don’t know where to start or feel overwhelmed by the technical aspects of audiobook production. This is where working with a partner like Twin Flames Studios can make all the difference. We handle everything—from recording and editing to distribution—so you can focus on what you do best: telling your story. Our streamlined process ensures that your audiobook is produced to the highest quality standards while allowing you to maintain full creative control.
Let’s Create Audio Magic Together
The world of audiobooks is rich with opportunity, and there’s never been a better time to explore it.
Ready to take the next step?
I’m hosting an in-depth webinar on September 19th, 2024 at 12 PM Eastern that will show you how to boost your bottom line, expand your audience, and create an audiobook that will give you content for years to come. This is where you start.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
If you're like most thought leaders, you've spent time developing a course or program that you were beyond excited to share with the world. It checked all the boxes:
It answered every question your ideal client might have.
It solved a frustration or pain point your ideal client shared with you.
It aligned with your brand's core mission and values.
And you were SURE it would sell out in minutes.
…but when you announced your shiny new program or product…instead of sales, you heard the sound of crickets. OUCH. We have ALL been there.
Now, part of owning a business is taking risks. And while you can't eliminate every chance of disappointment that comes with running your business, you can lessen the risk of selling a whopping zero programs or products with a very simple (yet often ignored) tactic: testing your messaging.
Instead of spending too much time thinking about creating a new offer or program…
Or spending months (or years) developing an entire suite of programs and offers…
…today, we are excited to share our tried-and-true method that will allow you to assess whether your idea is perceived as genuinely transformative to your audience – instead of just assuming that it will be.
Growing an aligned audience excited to learn from you requires cultivating a community eager to receive your wisdom, support, and guidance.
If you want to cultivate an aligned audience of humans who are excited about you and your business, you need to take a hard look at three key things:
Your niche
Your voice
The Invitation
Once you master those three things, you'll find that selling your programs and products becomes more straightforward and practically effortless.
Know Your Niche
It's not enough to assume that you're “niched down” – you've got to go deep here because surface-level “knowing” is no longer enough.
While you can narrow your niche in many ways, you want to focus on the ways that will result in them being able to say, “OH, THAT IS ME,” followed by, “I BELONG HERE.”
And, no, targeting people based on their Netflix obsession or their passion for crocheting isn't going to work. You'll waste precious time focusing on these things.
Instead, please focus on the actions they would be taking before working with you.
Use Your Voice
Please note that this does not refer to your volume–and this is where using your Content Personality® makes a massive difference in the energy of how your message is received.
The internet is a loud place – and that's before we even take a peek at social media.
When we talk about using your voice, we're talking about communicating your mission-driven message using your Content Personality® so that your narrowed niche can hear you, get excited, and get on board with your solutions, values, and more.
That is how aligned community growth happens!
Invite Them to Join Your Community
You may have already discovered this, but it's not enough to “post and pray,” hoping your aligned audience will find you as if by magic.
Instead of just hoping, be tactical with your messaging – invite your audience to share your vision for a changed world. This type of “leaning in” allows others to see you as human and amplifies the need to spread your message.
Suppose you're determined to create a lasting impact on your business and spread your mission. In that case, you'll need to become highly committed to being visible (using your Content Personality®), so your aligned audience can get to know you and cultivate a relationship with you.
Growing an aligned audience is possible, but it takes time, dedication, and courage!
When you share your mission and services with your audience in a way that is genuinely aligned with all the parts that make you UNIQUE, you'll earn their trust and create invaluable relationships (which will make offering your fantastic, ground-breaking, life-changing programs and products much easier).
The thing about growing an engaged, aligned audience is that everyone you're connected to absorbs and processes your messaging at their own pace.
This naturally means that some of your audience isn't ready to buy…yet. As a business owner, it's important to realize (and accept) that if someone doesn't invest with you today, that does not mean they won't be ready to invest with you later (maybe tomorrow or next week!).
Don't assume that someone not clicking the “buy” button means they don't want to work with you – they may need to grow your relationship first.
But wouldn't it be nice to know if, next time, introducing your brilliant idea makes sense for where the majority of your audience is right now?
(Yes, yes, it would.)
Take Action
If you're ready to make an impact and share your vision for change, take some time to review those three key things that can make or break your next offer.
Ask yourself:
Your Niche: Am I niched down enough? Is the audience I'm speaking to engaging and interacting with me?
Your Voice: Am I communicating effectively so that the people who read or listen to or watch my messaging understand my point of view, values, and mission?
The Invitation: Have you given the humans who follow your content time to get to know you and grow into a trusting relationship that will naturally lead to them investing in your program or product?
If you don't score perfectly across the board, that's normal (and expected). Review some of your more popular posts, videos, or emails and note how you highlighted your niche, used your voice, and invited your audience to take action.
If you don't have any posts that seem popular, take a broad overview of your messaging and identify areas where you need to improve for clarity and understanding. A great place to start is by learning your natural Content Personality®, and lucky for you, we've created a simple, 3-minute (seriously) quiz to help you understand precisely what your Content Personality® is and how to best utilize your natural talents in your messaging.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
More About M. Shannon Hernandez
M. Shannon Hernandez is ALL ABOUT THAT JOY in life and biz. She is specifically known around the globe for The Content Personality® Wheel and is the Founder of Joyful Business Revolution™, a business growth strategy and consultancy company that works with coaches, consultants, and service-based business owners. Shannon and her team specialize in organic mission-driven marketing and creative campaigns that help their clients grow aligned audiences and deepen community relationships, so they grow their business for GOOD, resulting in more joy, more time-off, and more profits with purpose.
You woke up feeling great this morning, but as you’ve completed projects and spoken with colleagues, you find yourself running out of steam. You feel burdened, anxious, or drained. Something is off. Why? You may be experiencing the effects of “emotional velcro.”
As we interact with others throughout the day, the emotions we encounter leave a residue on us because we are by nature empathic beings. Let’s say, for example, that your spouse has a stressful morning and you’re wondering how their afternoon is going or one of your team members feels stuck about an upcoming project and takes you into their confidence, seeking advice. Those emotions aren’t yours, but they can stick to you like velcro and color every interaction you have for the rest of the day. Emotional velcro has a compounding effect because when we are weighed down by it, we also leave our own emotional velcro behind for others to bear. If left unaddressed, emotional velcro hinders our ability to effectively communicate, influences our team’s emotional state and, ultimately, diminishes our leadership ability.
The good news is we can clear the emotional velcro we pick up and reclaim our energy while still being empathetic leaders. By clarifying our emotions, determining a strategy to process them and intentionally choosing our emotional states, we successfully manage our own emotions and maximize our emotional elasticity (our ability to emotionally adapt and engage). Furthermore, clearing our own emotional velcro ensures we continuously communicate with transparency and integrity, which means we do not transfer any emotional velcro to our team. As we lead by example, we contribute to creating a culture and workplace of psychological safety for our teams.
In order to accomplish these goals, there are a number of strategies we can use. Here are three to consider:
1. Self-evaluate.
Ask yourself, “Why am I feeling this way? Is there anything I am carrying that is not mine to bear?” Distinguishing if an emotion is yours or not is sometimes enough to release the velcro for us. In other situations, what someone else is going through may trigger some emotions of our own that may need to be readdressed. In either case, discerning what the source of the emotional velcro is and who it belongs to can bring either immediate relief or give us an opening for an empowered next step.
2. Self-address.
Address the struggle that the interaction has uncovered by getting curious about solutions and taking action. Sometimes, the solution is that we need to talk with someone else like a coach, counselor or other trusted source. Other times, we simply need to combat the issue with the truth about ourselves or the situation.
3. Shift your emotional state.
We have the power to learn to intentionally shift our emotional states. Just like learning to read or catch a ball, this is a skill set that simply takes practice — and that practice is not something most of us have consciously had before. Intentionally shifting does not mean denying what we are feeling or not caring about others; rather, it means consciously choosing and embodying an emotional state so we are not weighed down by emotional velcro. Embodiment techniques vary, and ample research exists explaining why they can be so effective. According to a study from the University of Tennessee at Knoxville, when we smile, it can actually help us feel happier. We can also use simple vocal techniques and “power poses” to release the stress we are feeling.
Engaging in this process of self-evaluating, self-addressing and shifting maximizes our emotional elasticity and brings more psychological safety to ourselves and the people around us as we lead by example. We may not be stress-free and revitalized overnight, but every time we “reset,” we are able to shift our emotional state more easily and more quickly. This allows us to establish deeper, more authentic connections with our team, be more present and pour into them from a place of wholeness, instead of scarcity. Psychologically safe workplaces begin with leadership. Shed your emotional velcro and see what happens.
Read and watch more Frequently Asked Questions about Audiobooks and benefit from our expertise, or Contact Us for more information and forthright advice about producing, distributing, and profiting from Audiobooks. Plus, download our Vocal Leadership Workout to develop and refine your the most influential tool you have — your voice!
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
Audiobook sales are the most rapidly growing segment of the publishing industry. Registering double-digit revenue growth for the past few years, it is having a renaissance that can no longer be ignored. How can authors capitalize on this massive opportunity? Robin Colucci brings an expert on to the podcast to help us understand this booming industry. Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert. Her company, Twin Flames Studios, helps authors and experts amplify their voices through audiobooks, podcasting, and other means. Listen to her discussion with Robin and learn why you should be looking into audiobooks as the new golden goose in publishing.
The Renaissance of Audiobooks and How to Capitalize on It with Tina Dietz
Our topic is audiobooks. Audiobooks sales and consumption have been booming. This is the most rapidly growing segment of the publishing industry. It’s been on a growth surge for the last few years of double-digit revenue growth in the field of audiobooks. In 2019, we had another epic year of audiobook sales with 16% growth. The total sales in audiobooks were $1.2 billion. This is a phenomenal thing that’s occurring. I wanted to bring on an expert who could help us understand a little bit more about audiobooks, how authors should be thinking about audiobooks, and what we might be able to do as authors to capitalize on this massive opportunity. With that in mind, I have brought on Tina Dietz.
Tina is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert who has been featured in media outlets including ABC, Inc., The Huffington Post, and Forbes. Tina’s first podcast, the The Start Something Show was named by Inc. Magazine as one of the Top 35 Podcasts For Entrepreneurs. Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, amplifies the messages of experts globally to their target markets via audiobooks, podcasting, and leadership. Tina divides her time between the US and Costa Rica where she’s part of a leadership team building a conscious community called Vista Mundo. Without further ado, let’s welcome Tina.
It’s my absolute pleasure, Robin. Thanks for having me.
I’m excited to speak with you because even though I’ve been in the publishing world for many years and long before there was such a thing as audiobooks, it’s an area that I don’t know a whole lot about. I’m as excited for myself to learn as I am for our readers.
It’s an interesting world and industry. I’m happy to share.
Book marketing is an evergreen thing. A little bit every day is better than a big push once.
We all know what an audiobook is. A lot of us listen and have them. Audible is the most famous platform for an audiobook. Something I learned or at least got a taste of in our previous conversations is there are other platforms. I want to know a little bit about that because as I said, this is where you have “newbie Robin.”
Audible is the 500-pound gorilla in the room. They’d been around for a long time. Audiobooks have been around in one format or another. Since 1929 was the first audiobook, which was on an album. Audiobooks were on albums and then they were on tapes. A lot of us remember Books on Tape for years then moved to CDs and then, of course, it moved digitally. It was in the digital transition that happened that audiobooks have received a huge resurgence and a huge renaissance.
Prior to that, one of the first audiobooks I listened to as a young adult was Deepak Chopra’s Magical Mind, Magical Body. It was 12 or 16 tapes. I could not keep track of those damn tapes. I was always like, “What tape is next? I don’t remember which one I was listening to.” When digital audiobooks came about, it changed the game and much like the iPod Nano and the iPod in general changed music. Audiobooks changed in the same medium. Audiobooks, music, podcast, all of this audio content has had a tremendous rise in the last few years.
Audiobook Renaissance: Audiobooks are not as popular outside of the English-speaking world. However, they’re having a tremendous rise in countries like China and India.(Image via The Author's Corner)
It’s such a drastic thing that in my mind, there weren’t audiobooks available. Luckily, I haven’t been in the publishing industry since 1929, so that’s a relief. It’s interesting because you’re right. As soon as you started saying it, I’m like, “the tapes!” It was clumsy. It was difficult to manage. You had to keep track of where you were. You could lose one and lose a whole chunk of the book, and you had to be home. You had to be somewhere where you could also use the equipment.
If you didn’t have a car and Walkmans, things like that, that’s where things got more popular in that era. Prior to that, with albums, you couldn’t do that. I remember being a little kid sitting in front of my record player, having the book, and record from Disney. When Tinkerbell rings her little bell, it’s time to turn the page. I loved those when I was growing up. Those were fun. It was part of learning how to read. Audiobooks have this lovely, rich tradition, but because we live in such a different era now with the internet, digital, Bluetooth, and all the technology we have, as you said, the dots don’t necessarily get connected between the two.
Audible, in that pivot, does hold more than 60% of the market share in audiobooks worldwide. Audiobooks are not as popular in other places of the world outside of the English-speaking Western cultures. However, they’re having a tremendous rise in countries like China and India as the markets have opened up. I’m waiting with a bowl of popcorn. I’m excited to see what’s going to happen there. Going back to your original question, there are a lot more outlets than that.
There are more than 40 other audiobook outlets. This goes everywhere from your libraries. Most people get audiobooks out of their libraries. Those are usually using apps like OverDrive and Libby and sometimes Hoopla. Those are the three big ones for libraries. Those are the apps that they go through. There’s also Audiobooks.com, Downpour, Scribd. Blackstone has their own thing. You can purchase audiobooks through NOOK and other places as well. There’s a large distribution world for audiobooks out there.
I’m curious when a library purchases an audiobook, do they purchase a license or do they purchase a single audiobook like they put a book on the shelf?
The world of libraries does work differently than the retail world and it’s not an area that I have a tremendous depth of expertise. I’ll be transparent about that. To get on the radar of libraries is a lot more challenging. It depends on the types of titles that they’re looking for and their yearly budget mandate. Every community is different. As you can imagine, the number of libraries across the US alone is huge. It’s in the tens of thousands.
Getting into libraries can be an entire strategy in and of itself. The way to get on the radar of libraries is a little opaque because you can’t campaign libraries. You could but it’s a little different. The licensing works different for libraries. They have to purchase more than one license in order to be able to pass it around, so to speak. There are some people in the industry who specialize in selling books to libraries. The audiobook and the book process for purchasing to libraries is, from what I understand, quite similar.
Make a note to get me that contact. That could be also an interest.
It’s a great niche.
I did a little research for a client. They were writing a book that was more for school-age kids. There are over 46,000 school libraries, nevermind other libraries. In K-12, there were over 46,000 libraries in the US at that time. There are all these different platforms but Audible has the lion’s share. I’m curious when you’re working with a client on an audiobook, since we jumped in distribution, what is your goal when someone comes to you for help with an audiobook? Do you focus on Audible or do you try to get them any? How do you look at all these platforms that are available as part of your strategy?
We have to look at the overall goals of the author. We work with non-fiction authors. Fiction goals and non-fiction goals are very different worlds. Generally, the goals with the fiction author is to sell copies. That’s the only name of the game. Whereas a nonfiction author has their book. It’s being used in service of building their platform. Selling copies is important but if you’re selling bulk copies of your book, you’re more likely to sell them in bulk when you’re speaking or to be handed out as a promotional item as a loss leader, or various other things.
Getting speaking gigs, attracting clients, getting press, media attention, all of those things. The goals are different so the strategies are different. What binds the two together is, first of all, distribution platforms. Secondly, everybody does want to sell copies and wants visibility. The third thing is that book marketing, it’s you and I could agree, is an evergreen thing. A little bit every day is better than a big push once. That’s where authors get tired. We could have a whole conversation about that.
As you said, with the non-fiction authors especially, I always tell my clients, “Look at what activities you already are doing to grow your business or you know you should be doing and do those to promote your book because it will pay you off way bigger.” It keeps the book in the conversation that way too.
Going back to your question about what we focus on: We have to look at the goals and the overall strategy of the company or the individual first. What do you want your audiobook to do for you? What do you already have in place? Do you have a marketing team? Do you already have strategies for your book? How is this going to dovetail with all of that? Usually, in terms of distribution, what we end up recommending for the most part, particularly for a newer book. If you have a book coming out as a launch and the audiobook is coming out right around the same time as your book is launching or say within six months afterwards, then what ends up happening is they’ll be distributed exclusively through Audible, Amazon, and Apple Books for the first year, which takes advantage of a couple of things. One is a higher royalty rate. Royalty rates for exclusive distribution of 40% versus 25% for non-exclusive distribution. The other thing it takes advantage of is being able to focus on pushing your marketing, your customers, and your audience at one platform.
Amazon, Audible and Apple Books, that’s one?
Technically, that’s considered exclusive distribution because Audible and Amazon are the same company and Apple Books has an agreement with Audible for distribution. It’s an automatic also-run thing.
I’m going to guess Apple Books is the second biggest platform. Would that be accurate?
No, because Apple only holds 10% of the cell phone market. It seems like it’s everywhere but on a worldwide basis, Android is a much bigger player in terms of the cell phone markets. Apple is amazing in their marketing and they’re amazing at creating evangelists for their brand.
Audiobook Renaissance: The most important factor in someone deciding to purchase an audiobook is the quality of the narration. (Image via The Author's Corner)
This exclusive distribution, you said for the first year.
Yes. You then can evaluate after the first year and decide if you want to continue on or if you want to go with non-exclusive and then get the audiobook out to a bunch of more platforms.
What would be a good reason to be on? I’m wondering, if you’re getting 40% royalty and then it goes down to 25% royalty, does it ever add up like getting that extra market share offsets the decrease in the royalties?
It comes down again to marketing and the goals. If you don’t market, it’s not going to make any difference either way what it comes down to. It’s a marketing opportunity to change your distribution. Once you have your book on other platforms, you can make announcements about it like, “The audiobook is now available here. Did you know that this existed?” Much of marketing in our digital age, particularly on the 24-hour news cycle that is social media is coming up with interesting little, “Did you know,” pieces of information. It’s much like being nominated for a book award, getting a book award, having your book in a new place, or having a speaking opportunity. These are all little snippets of information to offer to your audience to stay top of mind. Additional distribution creates an additional opportunity for content to market your book.
What I’m getting out of this is that you’re adding these other distribution platforms, piecemeal, not all at once.
You submit it all at once but they tend to come in onesie-twosie in their approval process because you’re using a portal. The portals that we use and these are a self-serve portal. Not just for publishers but for people who want to self-publish as well. ACX.com is the common self-publishing backend for audiobooks for Audible. FindawayVoices.com can be also used for Audible but it will also help to get your book up to 40 additional platforms. Not everybody is going to take your book but a lot of them will.
What should I have asked you about the distribution that I didn’t?
That’s a lot of the broad strokes of that particular thing. The only thing about distribution that people need to know is that at least in the beginning, it’s something you want to stay on top of and go in. Read your monthly reports, get familiar with the notations that are made because that’s market research for you. What channels are working for you? What is not working for you? What are your best places to define readers? Certain distribution channels also, individually, if you look into them, may have more opportunities for you to promote your book in different ways.
Some paid opportunities usually come up. For example, Findaway and there’s this program called CHIRP, it sends out a daily email for audiobook deals. You can submit your audiobook to CHIRP once it’s been accepted through these other channels. Your book gets pushed out on a daily email to over 100,000 people. Now, you’re going to give them a deep discount on the audiobook as a result. If you’re talking about nonfiction and building an audience, building notoriety, all of that, that can be to your advantage.
I want to talk a little bit about audiobook production because one thing that we see is there seems to be two tracks. We either have the author themselves read the book or there’s a voiceover artist.
That is correct. Occasionally, that’s a hybrid of the two. That’s our third option.
Talk to me a little bit about what are the things like if an author comes to you and they’re like, “I’m not sure if I should read it myself or if I should hire a voiceover artist.” What are some of the things that an author should be thinking about when you’re looking for it?
One of the things the author should be thinking about, again, comes back to the purpose of the book. First of all, most authors who write non-fiction who are building a platform will come to me and say, “I have to narrate my book. Nobody can do it like me.” That is the first assumption that we question because that may be true. However, the most important factor in someone deciding to purchase an audiobook is the quality of the narration. Even if the author can read the book out loud in a way that they feel characterizes the book correctly, whether that translates or not to a listener receiving it the way it’s intended is an entirely different matter. They may feel like, “This is how I need it to be read,” but their listener may be going, “That is not what you’re portraying.” That is one of the things we have to take a look at and evaluate.
A lot of the folks we work with, our speakers narrating an audiobook is different than public speaking. It’s a tool. It’s a different animal. When you’re up on a stage, public speaking, you’re speaking one to many whereas on a podcast or a narration, you’re speaking one-to-one. You can’t get out there and be like, “Ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to be doing all of this and talk about audiobooks.” It blows your face off. You also can’t be boring but you have to slow down with an audiobook because audiobooks are at a slower pace than most other kinds of speaking. There’s a balance there. The breathing is different.
Recording an audiobook takes time and that’s if you hire a professional. If you want to go DIY, double that time and add a bottle of vodka.
Even the duration of time that you have to spend recording an audiobook—it’s not just a matter of reading the book. It’s reading the book in such a way that it sounds like you’re not reading it. There are all of these factors that go into it. In the early days of developing the company and the services and all of that, we did experiment with a number of different ways of working with authors who wanted to narrate their own books because it is an important thing. About 1/3 of our authors self-narrate and about 2/3 work with a professional narrator. That’s the way it shakes out. Some because they don’t have a great voice for narration.
They’re great for a keynote, but if you had to listen to them for 6 or 7 hours, no. Again, a different animal. There may be some physical issues. One of my favorite authors, brilliant book, brilliant man, and a rare form of head-neck cancer. He couldn’t narrate his entire book. There was no way. We did what I like to call the Tony Robbins Sandwich with his book. Tony Robbins narrates the first chapters and the last chapter of his book and has a professional narrator do the middle. That’s what we did with that particular client. It worked out well. Those are some of the factors.
Audiobook Renaissance: There need to be more opportunities for a diversity of narrators. One of the reasons people didn’t listen to audiobooks more is because they were boring.(Image via The Author's Corner)
There’s something in here because when you were talking about a speaker on stage being one-to-many, an audiobook is a one-on-one. I want to point out an idea that goes along with that. It’s something that I speak about fairly regularly is this idea of how a book is the best way when you’re thinking about a marketing avenue to create intimacy to your prospective client or with your reader when we’re talking non-fiction. It’s often your prospective clients or somebody who’s going to be influenced by you in some way. What you’re saying about audiobooks and even the tone of the voice, the pace of the speech, volume, and everything else, I never thought of it before but you’re right. It is a one-on-one conversation, just like the writing is but it’s important to get that across. It’s even different if you’re standing at a book signing in front of the room and reading an excerpt.
You have more bodies there and different energy.
That is one-to-many, but an audiobook is a one-on-one conversation. One of the things is vocal quality. Even the amount of time the author is willing or able to—
The time is a big factor. I’ll give you simple math, 10,000 words of a book are about one hour of audio. You’ve got 40,000-word book, you’ve got about a four-hour audiobook. That four hours of the audiobook is going to take about 10 to 12 hours of recording time. This is working with a professional organization like us. This is not DIY. For DIY, double that and add a bottle of vodka. It’s not just me saying this and do a shot for every hour of audiobook you do, it’s a drinking game. Split up into 2 to 3-hour chunks because that’s about as far as you can go with our vocal fatigue and energy issues and all of that.
What we do to work with the author and take the technology out of their hands and also to give them the objective feedback and a person to play off of, is we do the full direction of our audiobooks, but we do it remotely. We have software we’re able to remote in to wherever the author is anywhere in the world, help them make sure that their sound is tuned correctly, we’ll suggest a microphone, make sure they’re in the right place in their home or office to record. We then fully direct and record the audiobook for them to the entire process. That creates a wonderful product. It also takes a lot of the stress and pressure off of the author. All they have to do is focus on delivering their message and being natural about it and that helps a lot.
You’re able to give them feedback.
Yes, so it makes it a lot easier to catch issues. A lot of our authors have charts, graphs, and exercises in their books. There are industry standards on how to narrate those. We’re able to live coach people through all that process as well.
Let’s talk a little bit about the other side of hiring vocal artists to record your audiobook. What are some of the things that you advise authors to consider when they’re trying to make that decision? Let’s say they’ve decided, “I’d like to use the voiceover artists.” What are some of the things that they should be thinking about as they’re deciding? What’s that going to look like?
I have done professional narration. My background's as a therapist. As an entrepreneur of multiple businesses, did business coaching for years, but the voice acting was a paid hobby for me because I love a stage and a microphone. The masterclasses I took on audiobook narration had me have this epiphany about all my colleagues and clients who are doing bestseller campaigns, why aren’t they doing audiobooks? That was the rabbit hole I went down. That’s how I got there.
Between the podcasting and the audiobooks, microphones are a big part of my day one way or another. Narration and voiceover work in its industry. It has its own language and standards. Coming into that world as an author or as a business owner, there are some things you need to know about that industry. When we send out auditions, there are key pieces of information you need to provide to an author in terms of, what are you paying? What section of the book do you choose for an audition and how long it is? Where do you choose from the book?
Other key pieces of information that the narrator is going to need. If you want somebody to emulate your energy and have similar qualities to your voice being able to articulate, what are those qualities that are most important? What are the key pieces that somebody needs to know if the book is going to, first of all, resonate with them and what they need to deliver to you in terms of an audition? A lot of mistakes that authors make doing this on their own are putting an audition piece out that’s way too long and then being offended when somebody only sends back one minute of an audition. Auditions need to be short. Another thing that happens a lot is getting into the production of the audiobook and not having been clear upfront about the number of characters or the type of characters, even in non-fiction.
A lot of the pronunciation issues can come in regionalisms. We had an issue a while back. We keep a running list of these and this one we hadn’t run into yet. We had 38 replacements. You can’t go back when in audio like you can in text and do a find and replace. This narrator had to go back and we worked with the other because normally, we wouldn’t even allow that change at the end. That’s something that needs to be discussed upfront. Fortunately, the narrator was game and it all worked out but she would have had to replace entire paragraphs or entire sentences depending on the situation in the book. These are the things we get ahead of and get on top of. Occasionally, things happen as I mentioned. We get ahead of it 99% more than working through it on your own. Those are a few things.
What is the question that an author asks themselves even going into that? How do they know to tell somebody that they want that? It made me think of The Chicago Manual of Style which we both know is the publishing industry bible for punctuation and everything. It’s a perfect book except you have to know there might be a mistake to look for the correct way. How do you help authors figure out what to ask for in even a situation like that?
We have a whole onboarding process where we go through things like that. We have protocols, guidelines, and all of these things that we walk people and authors through to help prevent things like this. Everything from names to medical terminology and other types of regionalisms even down to looking at, “Are there any characters in your book, even if it’s nonfiction, who are they? What do they sound like?” One of my favorite books we ever did so far is called Tiger Bravo’s War. It is a ten-hour audiobook about the Vietnam War that I would put up against Ken Burns any day of the week.
Our narrator who works with us in the company now on our podcasting divisions. He’s a wonderful guy named David White. He did an incredible job of nuancing about 15 or 20 different soldiers’ voices inside of this documentary-style memoir. Getting those characters out front, getting a sense of who they are, and having the narrator demonstrate that before you get too deep into the production, that’s important.
I want to bring up something because you cleared a memory for me of an audiobook that I was listening to and I was enjoying. I believe the author Red Moskoff. They did a character and they brought in a different voice. By the way, this was traditionally published—New York Times. Not only was it a terrible Middle Eastern accent, it was so bad that it sounded racist to me. It’s offensively bad.
They went full Apu from the Simpsons.
That’s a perfect analogy. I was going to say it was like a Breakfast at Tiffany’s nightmare. I still enjoyed the book but every time that would happen, unfortunately, it was more than once in the manuscript. I would cringe and it nearly ruined the experience for me. What about characterization, especially when it’s clearly across cultural narrations? This seems to me to be a real potential minefield. If you could you say a little bit about that.
There is always something to get better at.
It can be. We produced a book that was author narrated and it was an emotional book. As I’m talking with potential clients and scanning through their books, a lot of them are highly emotional. I was crying in the first two pages of this guy’s book. He was writing it and he was an angry, abusive man. It was about his healing journey and what he wanted men to know. He had traveled to many countries as a professional Rugby player. He had voices of these people from different countries and cultures. He had a lot of facility in doing this.
He was able to slip into their skins—which most authors don’t have that ability to do. One of the things that the director did is he went and listened to other authentic accents to see how far off or how far on the author was and to make sure it didn’t come off as mocking or disrespectful in any way. There are ways to handle it in the direction process. Professional narrators are sensitive to this because they want things to be represented accurately. That comes down to the audition process and vetting people.
I didn’t feel like we needed the accent in that book I’m telling you.
A lot of times it’s not necessary or there’s a shade. You don’t have to hit it hard.
Why is this even happening?
It happens a lot with male narrators doing female voices as well. Some are brilliant at it. Some of them will characterize female voices as whiny, shrewish, or childish. That’s an issue in the industry that gets brought up regularly and on both sides. Women doing male voices, men doing women’s voices because it’s one narrator. Full cast recordings are still quite rare in the industry because of the cost of production. Some of them are great, like The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, but particularly in non-fiction full-cast recording.
I’m glad we got a chance to talk about that. It left quite an impression on me.
If we have culturally diverse authors and one of our authors is from China. We opted not to have him do the narration. His articulation isn’t quite up to speed. It might be hard for the listener. He’s a brilliant speaker from the stage—he’s fantastic. But 8 to 10 hours on an audiobook will be harder. One of our biggest challenges has been finding somebody who is Chinese-American or Chinese immigrated to the US, a professional narrator who can do this voice authentically.
Have a hint of the authentic accent without being thick.
It needs to be real.
That’s another aspect of this. If the author is an immigrant or something in the US.
We have several books in the pipeline that we know our narrator searches expanded because there need to be more opportunities for a diversity of narrators. For years, it was, “This is Audible. I’m an Audible guy.” That’s one of the reasons people didn’t listen to audiobooks because they were boring.
“I’m a suburban white man Audible.”
“Can you see my blue suit just from the tone of my voice? I bet you can.”
“On weekends, I wear khakis.”
“I play golf.” I’m a professional instigator, I should warn you.
What I wanted to say is this sounds like a heck of an opportunity. Let’s talk a little bit about investment-wise. What’s the difference when we hire an artist to record our audiobook for us versus doing it ourselves?
There are a couple of levels. We try to keep the cost of author narration and the cost of professional narration very similar. The business model we’ve created has allowed for that because counterintuitively to a lot of people, it used to be in our company that author narration was way more expensive. I run into that all the time but think about it. We had to train the author on a whole new skillset. We had to research studios. We had to pay studio time, which is hourly, and studio time, depending on where you are in the world, is anywhere from $50 to $250 an hour. The editing was a lot more intensive because we weren’t doing what’s called Punch and Roll recording. We weren’t doing live direction. Studios will give you a sound engineer who’ll tell you if you’re screwing up but they just record the whole session. We stop, back up, and record again to get rid of a lot of those errors.
The comfort level of the author was tense because even with training them ahead of time, it was crazy. All of those factors make for a much more expensive prospect. We’ve got things down and we have a negotiated rate with our narrators that we’ve got a sweet spot. However, we do also have a premium level for narrators. These are folks who are in the Actor’s Union, SAG-AFTRA. The minimum required hourly rate to work with those folks is $225 an hour. That’s what’s called a per finished hour rate. That can include multiple things. That’s not studio hours. I go back to that 40,000-word book is four hours long. It would be $225 for four hours. That’s the math we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about 15, 20 hours in a studio at $225 an hour.
Audiobook Renaissance: It’s always better to experiment, beta test, and interest focus group things out before making a big launch. (Image via The Author's Corner)
That’s a lot more reasonable than I would have been imagining.
The average audiobook that we produce is somewhere in the $2,800 to $5,000 range.
I’ve heard of people charging 2 to 4 times.
It can get high depending on how much margin they’re adding. If you’re working out of New York or LA, your price automatically goes up because the cost of production is much higher in those cities.
If you’re hiring the talent or as you said, you were able to do it remotely, that’s not as expensive.
All the companies I’ve ever owned, except for my first one, was in completely remote. For years, we’ve been 100%t remote and my team is across North America and Europe.
A lot of businesses like mine are similar. We were already working remotely. The pandemic added my social life to the remote category.
I lost all my coffee offices for a while. I know that talk about first world problems, but nonetheless.
This has been informative. We talked about production, distribution, costs, and talent. The thing that’s occurring to me now is, you don’t have to reveal any names or anything. Do you have any stories of audiobooks either gone extremely well or horribly wrong? I always love a good story.
One of the reasons we changed the way we were doing things and I looked for solutions around author narration is because of both the amount of time that it took to work with authors that way and then having to go to the studio and the cost involved. Like with many things in business, a lot of what has to be handled upfront is expectation management. For people who don’t understand what it takes to edit audio and rerecord audio versus text, we call it a repeated education process and 90% of people get it. We occasionally do end up with someone who resists the training and coaching, and then after recording wants to go back and rerecord the whole thing because “now they have a handle on it” and think that’s included.
That is not the way that works. You can’t go back and do another ten hours of recording because you feel like it. You haven’t taken the coaching and been willing to do the work that needs to be done. Similarly, managing expectations on the professionally narrated side of things, it’s important upfront to get all of the expectations, voices, cadence, timing, pacing, and all these things are done. We do all that in what’s called the first fifteen of the book. We take about the first 15, 20 minutes, produce it, and make sure that it’s what the author wants before we produce the rest of the book.
We have an audiobook that created a tremendous amount of havoc in the author’s life because they realized in listening back to their own work, that they hated their work and wanted to shutter their company. It was intense. In hearing a third party deliver their work back to them, they had a breakdown. I’m a therapist by training but they were also in a different country, difficult to reach, and a long time difference. It ended up being an abandoned project with them not paying their bill because they decided to not move forward with their company. That resulted in some policy changes on our side of things.
Once you’ve been in business for a while, there are always a few items in the contract that were created in response to a specific situation.
That’s why contracts end up being so long.
They’re like, “We can’t let that happen again. Let’s set this.”
Making people’s initials in certain paragraphs is something we do because it’s easy like the terms and condition page to scroll to the bottom and check, “I have read it.” It is important to read. I don’t read all the terms and conditions either, but in contracts, I definitely read every word because there could be some questions there.
I’m thinking about that. They should have paid you but it could have been a great thing that happened for them.
That’s the thing and I don’t disagree. It was a case of somebody who was extremely well-meaning, had gone out, and they were putting themselves forward as an expert in an area that they had no experience in. It was all academic knowledge. It was all from synthesizing reading and going to workshops. They had never had a single client ever. They, unfortunately, spent over six figures in trying to launch this company. This is a lesson in entrepreneurship. I know there’s somebody out there who needs to know this. I’ve never told this story or alluded to this story anywhere in the media before. I built many businesses and companies my time and helped many other people do the same. It’s much better to experiment, beta test, and interest focus group things out before you do a big website, a book launch, or anything like that.
I want to add to that because this has shown up many times in my business that somebody will come to me in that situation. They’re like, “I want help writing a book.” I’ll be like, “Cool but I’m not going to be the one helping you.” You have no business writing a book about your expertise until you’ve developed some expertise. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who will tell people, “You need a book so you can have a business.” It isn’t true. It’s such a dramatic illustration of a big problem but this is investing over six figures to launch a brand with nothing behind it. By the time he came to you, most of that money was spent.
It doesn’t matter what religion you are. When it comes to sales, you have to become a Buddhist at that moment.
This is an aftereffect of it.
I will let people write a booklet. Quick turnaround, test, and we do help people with that. That’s why I came up with that idea, by the way, was because I turned away thousands of people over the last years who came to me wanting to write a book in exactly that situation and said, “Go become an expert and then come back.”
Come back when you have some chops in what you’re doing. That happens more on the podcasting side of our company. I will pivot people from, “I need to start a podcast.” “No, you don’t need to start a podcast. You need to build some clientele, sell some stuff, and be in business.” I’ll pivot them from having their own podcast to podcast guesting. That’s a great way both to network, to generate content, to build authority, all of those things that you want to do without the massive commitment that it is to have a quality podcast.
I know we’re a little off-topic, but I agree with you. There are people reading this who need to know this. When people start a podcast, what they need to do is get clients. When they decide to write a book, what they need to do is get clients or do an audiobook. The problem is if it feels productive. They can get up in the morning and say, “I’m growing my business,” “I’m recording a podcast,” or “I’m working on my book.” What they’re not seeing is what they’re avoiding. If people don’t have clients yet and everything’s theoretical, it’s because they don’t feel comfortable with doing sales.
A lot of what shows up looking like productivity is an expensive, very long avoidance strategy that could eat up somebody’s entire savings and set them back in terms of their ability to generate momentum in their business because they’re trying to avoid sales subconsciously. What’s they’re saying is, “This is what I do. This is how much it costs, Mastercard, American Express, or Visa.” That’s what innate and they can tell themselves they’re being productive. That’s why it’s so destructive when people tell people that. It’s a double whammy. When they figure it out, their resources are drained.
I bootstrapped my businesses in the beginning for years working other jobs, whatnot is exploring, and all of that. Sometimes you get sold the dream. I grew up in a situation, my parents owned a business, and I was surrounded by sales. Even I wasn’t comfortable with sales until I was in my late 20s, early 30s, it’s always something to learn. There’s always something to master or get better at. It never has anything to do with making the sale, it has everything to do with your internal conversation, your personal growth, and your ability to create relationships. The sales has nothing to do with sales.
We can do a whole episode on sales. I look at it that the sales conversation is a quest for clarity and to help the person that I’m on the phone will come to a place of clarity. If the clarity dictates that we work together, we work together. If the clarity dictates that we don’t work together, we don’t work together. That takes all of the pressure off everybody. I don’t feel pressure to make the sale and they don’t feel pressured too or people like they’re being sold because that’s not what the conversation is about.
This was a mentor of mine that created a lot of clarity for me around sales. Robin, how do you feel about cookies?
I love cookies.
If I were to bake a plate of cookies, I would say, “Robin, would you like a cookie?” Assuming we were together and not social distancing, you would say yes, right?
Yes.
If I were in a room, I walked around, and I offered 100 people a cookie, some people are going to say yes and some people are going to say no. The people who say no, is there anything wrong with my cookie?
Nothing is wrong with your cookie.
The people who say yes, is there anything magical about that cookie special or does it mean anything?
No.
There are all reasons they could have said no. They could be diabetic, not like that particular cookie, allergic to one of the ingredients, not hungry, or on a diet. The cookie has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with my worth or even with my ability as a baker. People say yes or no. Ultimately, you go out into the world and you think about “selling something.” You’re offering them your cookie, and there’s nothing wrong with your cookie.
That’s a great analogy. That was the hardest thing for me to get over because I went from a place of being afraid of sales to I’m almost addicted to sales. I love selling. It’s fun. The big thing that I had to get over was taking it personally either I was lacking or what’s wrong with me. That’s how I did. I was having a lot of conversations in a short period of time to the point where I didn’t care.
That happens a lot with people learning how to like their own voices. They have to listen to themselves over and over again. I say all the time, “It doesn’t matter what religion you are. When it comes to sales, you have to become a Buddhist at that moment. You just have to practice non-attachment.” Temporary conversion. You can convert back afterward.
You can pick up all your baggage. Tina, this has been wonderful and informative. Thank you for sharing your insight, wisdom, and great stories with us.
Thanks, Robin. This has been awesome. I appreciate it.
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and influence marketing expert who has been featured on media outlets including ABC, Inc.com, Huffington Post and Forbes. Tina’s first podcast, The StartSomething Show, was named by INC magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs.
In 2016, Tina was the recipient of the Evolutionary Business Council MORE award and in 2017 she received the award for Outstanding Audio Company from The Winner’s Circle. She is also a member of the EBC leadership body and a founding member of the Forbes Coaches Council. Tina was also the lead interviewer in the podcasting documentary “The Messengers” and featured in the film.Tina splits her time between the US and Costa Rica where she’s part of the leadership team building a community of conscious leaders called Vista Mundo.
Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share!
Yes, thank you for joining us.So please tell us a story of how Twin Flames Studios came to be.
Well, Twin Flames Studios is a high ROI Influence and Marketing company where we use audio to amplify the voices and messages of trusted leaders and companies all over the world. It's really our mission to help these people help these organizations get their word out to a larger audience in the very intimate form of audio, whether that is nonfiction audiobook publishing, or that is podcasting strategically for your business.
And it's important that we note that in these times of great change, these powerful voices are needed now more than ever.
My background, and my story, is a little bit more like the twisty journey of a lot of entrepreneurs.I grew up as an entrepreneur—my parents’ business—the super sexy world of wood burning stoves and fireplaces.
Wow.
Yeah, very exciting. But I never wanted to have my own business because I didn't want to be tied down to a brick and mortar like my parents were. And I'm an only child, so that business was my annoying younger sibling when I was growing up.
Right, the baby.
The baby, yeah.
So, I became a therapist, and I tried to be conventional. And that didn't work out so well for me—
Okay—
As many entrepreneurs—
The entrepreneurial spirit was still—
That’s right, within the blood.
Yes.
So, after working in higher education, starting a nonprofit, and also building a family—another family business with my father, the Nayada Institute of Massage—I stepped off into a full-time business coaching practice. And through the jigs and the reels over the years grew that practice.
It was wonderful, had young children at the time, we lived a mobile lifestyle, we sold our stuff moved to Costa Rica. And at one point because I was… had my own, like personal expression—I grew up a little bit of a theater kid—drama kid—and was looking for some outlets, creative outlets—I became a voice actor as a paid hobby. And through that process, and learning the audiobook industry as a narrator—I was exploring that—I had this epiphany “Well, wait a minute, I'm coaching all these people from all over the world who owned businesses—20 different industries, eight different countries—why aren't these folks who are publishing their own books doing bestseller campaigns? Why aren't they doing audiobooks?”
And it was that curiosity that led me down the rabbit hole first for audiobooks—I already had my own podcast at the time—had fallen in love with that world. And that is what led to developing this niche in podcasting and audiobooks for business owners, thought leaders and companies.
And so what would you say the difference is versus something that's on paper, versus really hearing a tone? What does that do for an audience to really hear a voice?
Well, you know, a couple of years ago, I had the pleasure and privilege of being the lead interviewer on a documentary about podcasting called The Messengers, you can find it I think it's on Amazon Prime. And that was developed by Chris Krimitsos and his team at the Podfest Multimedia Expo. And that was, that organization was younger at the time and wanted to really explore what is this industry of podcasting from an independent podcaster’s point of view, rather than monopoly, or NPR or the, you know, the big professional gigs.
So, I interviewed about 40, different podcasters from all different walks of life, different countries, different places, most of them didn't know each other. And the word that came up in every single interview independently was the word intimacy. Podcasting being this intimate format, you know, directly into your ears—becoming a voice in somebody's head, it's such a privilege. And that and then also the ability to do active storytelling when we're so wired to tell stories as human beings. So that's, you know, the audio format has a lot of advantages in that way. And it's also the most accessible form of media, you know, you can listen—as I'm assuming some people are right now listening to this podcast—when you can't read, you can listen when you can't watch. So, you can take it anywhere.
And as a coaching also involved in telling… teaching people how to speak as well as I'm sure some people aren't necessarily natural storytellers. Is that something you sometimes have to teach certain clients as well?
Yeah, actually, the body of work that I've been developing over time and will continue to do so is around what I call Vocal Leadership. And that's really about the instrument that your external voice is and learning how to tune that and play it beautifully to another level. And also, the internal voices that we have, which is really… if the external voice is the instrument, then the internal voice is the music, the sheet music that we're playing.
So those two things really need to be congruent in order to have a presence, and in order to move people the way we want to move them through stories. And then, of course, there's also the actual storytelling, and microphone techniques, and all of that good stuff as well.
The little details.
Yeah, exactly.So, our hosts… One of the things we do as a company as we get our podcast hosts together into a mastermind about quarterly, to connect them with each other, and also to provide additional support and training.
Okay
And that's, in addition to meeting with them one-on-one to help them with the strategy, you know, as their podcast is, you know, being aired.
Okay, and so that kind of goes to my next question—you mentioned Voice Leadership, and then how you can kind of take an extra step to really connect with the audience. So then, what does being a conscious business leader mean to you?
I think that the word conscious has… has not become overplayed, but it's important to take a step back and look at “Well, what does that really mean?” I'm so glad you asked the question.
And being conscious in your business means taking not just your business into account, it's taking the impact that you're making, or that you can make into account. And that has to do not just with the people that you serve, but it also has to do with how your business is set up. How the impact… How it impacts the people that work inside the company? Is it a win for them? Is it a good culture? Is it healthy? Is it helping people develop their dreams and goals? And is it good also for the people who are, you know, the founders? So, sometimes it's really easy as a C suite or business owner to get on this hamster wheel where you will—you burn out, right?
So, you really need to bring a conscious view… You know, taking these things into consideration. What are the deeper values that you have? And how do those infuse everything that you're doing, everything that you're saying, and the practices that you have? You know, unfortunately, being in the entrepreneur world, speaking world, as long as I have, sometimes you run into people who preach these incredible positive messages from the stage, but then don't treat people well behind the curtain. And being conscious means that you're congruent.
And that also comes back around to the—you know—the vocal leadership, or embodied leadership that we all strive to develop. When you are conscious to make sure that, you know, you're reflecting and having the… your internal conversations match what's coming out of your face.
Wow, that's the first time I've heard that sort of response as far as how it can be one way for the show, but behind the scenes things aren't matching, and how it needs to.So, would you say then, in order for things to be congruent, it has to start with the internal of the founder, of the person who's kind of setting the culture from the beginning?
Yeah, I would completely agree with that. You set the tone. The buck stops here, as the old saying goes.
And I think one of the important things about being a leader is being open enough to seek the coaching on that or to seek the feedback on that, not just from other experts, but also from your team, also from the people around you, from your, from your clients. And it can really take something to hear feedback about that. I remember years ago—I'll go in all the way back to my 20s—I used to get this piece of feedback all the time, because I'm a pretty intense person, you know, I—
I understand, yes.
There's this intensity, and there's this fervor, and there's this passion. And it's… they would say, “Well, could you tone it down a little bit?” Or “Could you soften your edges?” And—oh, my god—that was so offensive, that pissed me off 18 different ways. Because I thought, I just thought they meant that they wanted it, “You go be quiet, put in a box, and smile and do what you're told.” And sometimes that was the case. But what I came to understand later, is that it wasn't really about me, it was about them being intimidated by me. But where I can be kind, and I can be compassionate is learning how to read the room.
Right
And learning how to not, you know, quell or shut off my integrity or my passion, but to manage it in order to express it in a way that people can really receive. Because that's what's important to me, can you receive the message that I'm giving?
Right, right. I guess that’s one of the hardest lessons to learn—different people receive things in different ways.
Right.
I’m just passionate, I just want you to do great, I want us to do great. And just certain ways… it doesn't sit with people like that. And it's learning how to do that extra communication.
Yeah, I remember one of the most important conversations I ever had was in a leadership course really kind of intense one year-long course. And one of my fellow, very successful executive woman, she said—I was getting all ramped up about something—she said, “Why is this so important to you?” I said, “Well, the question is, why isn't it important to you?” And we had a really fascinating discussion about how different people have different capacities to feel. And certain ones of us are very highly sensitive and other people are not. And just, it really opened my eyes, because I really kind of just thought that everybody was like me, and turns out, nope—
No—
Not so much.
I had to make those adjustments. And so, where do you see your business going then in the next three to five years? And I'm sure… We're seeing that people are doing more audio both receiving and giving, than actual reading, and literature, and everything. So where do you see your business going?
Well, it's been a… we've doubled the company four years in a row, time on time. And I don't expect that that will happen forever, certainly—
But it's nice.
It's great so far. And so, we're in a big scaling phase right now. And also, in a position, you know, earlier, in 2020, when the pandemic really was affecting a lot of our colleagues, our clients, our customers, former clients—things like that—I was grateful that we were in a position because we've always been a fully mobile company. And of course, audio is much easier to do remote—that we offered, you know, a lot of—a complement just for free. We went out and said, “What… how can we help?” and offered teleclasses, and consultations, and things like that, to help different companies make use of this online space, make use of audio, both for internal communications, and external communications and marketing. And so, we've had… 2020 was really a banner year for us.
And going into 2021 and beyond we're just looking to really serve more companies to have more intimate relationships with their current clients, with their future clients, with their colleagues, and even for their internal culture, because podcasting in particular, can help with all of that. And then on the author side of things, of course, a lot of people with time that they had, are finishing their books and getting things out on audio—and you know, audiobooks, outsell eBooks three to one across genres. So, it's… It's a beautiful thing to be able to help people get their voice out like that.
Yeah, absolutely, so you're kind of in a nice little sweet spot where it's like you get to of course, help people build their businesses and kind of make some pivots, but of course, it helps your business as well having more clients.
Exactly. You know, it's weird to say it felt like being in the right place at the right time after 20 years. So, worth the wait, worth the wait.
Absolutely. So, you have a few services offered through your website, such as links to your podcast and audiobooks. Tell us about any other services that you might offer, your business offers?
Well, you know, the done-for-you audiobook side of things, one of our… the key things that we're able to do with folks, to the best of my knowledge, we're the only audiobook house—and we do specialize in nonfiction exclusively—who is able to remote into wherever an author is in the world and record their audio book with them, live, full direction, from their home studio or office without them having to go into a studio.
And we can coach them on very easily getting good sound having a high-quality audiobook, and it keeps the cost down. And it's also very comforting to be in your own space while you're do that. So… And we also can do really fun things like insert music, and even other audio clips, and things like that. We're producing a memoir for a family right now on the Holocaust. And there are some fascinating video clips that we're converting to audio that we're going to be inserting in the narrative to help tell the story. So, there's some really cool stuff we do on that side.
Same thing with podcasting. Podcasting is so creative and such a beautiful format to get your message out there. So, whether it is internal podcasting—like we do with enterprise level companies—, external podcasting—that we do with companies and organizations to help get the word out about who they are, what they do and develop their influence—, or the vocal leadership—that I do one-on-one, to help people become more effective in the messages that they have. We're just happy to do all of it—
Yeah, sounds like, yeah, cover a lot of different things that a lot of different people could use especially right now with how things have changed. And so, for anyone who's interested in using any of those services or just even wants to connect with you, where are the best places, and platforms to go to?
You can definitely find me on any social media platform. We have a social media following about 280,000 so we're out there and so you can find me, Tina Dietz. You can also look up Twin Flames Studios, although my name is probably going to get you a better result there on LinkedIn, certainly Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. And you can also just come over to us at TwinFlamesStudios—it's a lot of ss—.com, and come and hang out with us find out some more information, and grab a cup of coffee.
Love it. I love coffee, and I'm sure others do too and would love to share with you.
Me too.
Perfect.
Tina Dietz, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure learning about you and your company today.
Well, it's been a pleasure being here. Thanks so much, Gabby.
Learn more about the intimacy and power of our voice,
During these extraordinary times, I invite you to find and embrace the tremendous power of the pause in…your leadership. Take a look
We are living extraordinary times. Times of change where we are all being asked to stop, to observe ourselves with more intention, to act with more kindness. From a distance.
This is a time where we have the opportunity to consider what we have been taking for granted and make some choices.
I invite you to consider making a small shift. A small shift that carries huge change and opportunities with it.
Hey, it's Tina Dietz coming to you live from my office studio here after a long day of having many conversations with leaders from all over the US and Canada.
And what's on everybody's mind?
How are we going to keep doing business as usual when nothing is business as usual?
And here's the opportunity.
We live in extraordinary times.Which gives us the opportunity to be extraordinary leaders.
Now, what does that mean? Does it sound like a lot of pressure?Do you say to yourself “Oh, I'm already a leader, and now I just got to figure this out.”
Well, I would request that right here right now in this moment that you actually just pause.
There is so much power in taking a pause.For your mind.For your spirit.And for whoever you're communicating with.
We live in a world where we are very uncomfortable with silence.
Even in a moment of silence, you're thinking to yourself “What are they going to say next? What are they going to do next? What am I going to say next? What am I going to do next?”
And that is a lost opportunity.
Because it is only in the listening of ourselves, and in the listening of others that we truly have an opportunity to create something new.
Our brains chatter the same thing about 85% of the time. By the time you're thirty, your personality is pretty well solidified. You have very similar vocal patterns. You have very similar mental pattern. Not that we don't learn new things; we do. But our personalities get kind of firmed up. And now, with all of the change happening, we have the ability and the opportunity to consider what we have been taking for granted. And maybe make some choices around making small shifts.
So, the small shift I'm asking you to make today is to give yourself more room to pause, and more room for silence.In your own life, and the conversations that you're having.
Before you respond to something somebody says —you're in a team meeting, you're in a conversation, you're running the meeting and you feel like you have to have all the answers— take a deep breath with everybody.
Invite everybody to take a pause together.“Let's just take a minute, and give this a little thought. Let's just take a moment and consider what was just said. Let's just take a moment to take a deep breath together. How are you guys doing?”
And let the moment settle before you get into a checklist, before you get into who's doing what and when and how, in that agile daily huddle rapid speed delivery that we all have.
So, that is what I'd love for you to consider today. in upping your leadership game. Particularly, your vocal leadership game, is the power of the pause.
There's a lot more ways that we can use pauses in our vocal leadership and in our delivery and in our presence to make a difference with our teams to engage, and inspire, and inform, and create beautiful, beautiful levels of performance in others as a leader.
We can talk about that if you want.Send me a message and we can talk more about that. You can learn more in some of the articles below.
And just enjoy as much as possible in all of the fracas that we're dealing with now.
Take a moment.
You deserve it. Your people deserve it.
We're All in This Together. Take care.
How much are you allowing yourself (and your team) to pause?
