As we head into the next presidential election you'll notice that the pitch, the pause, the rise and fall of a leader’s voice captures hearts and minds just as effectively—if not more so—than the words themselves.
As I’ve noted before, “The way you sound has a profound impact on how your message is received, often more so than the content of the message itself.”Do You Sound Like a Leader? explores this in greater detail.
As we look at the vocal delivery styles of 2024 presidential candidates Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, we find that the way a leader speaks can profoundly shape public perception. For leaders, experts, and entrepreneurs, understanding this dynamic can be the key to leading effectively and making your voice heard.
The Science of Persuasion: Why Vocal Qualities Matter
Sure, content is king. But the crown jewels? They’re all in the delivery. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence psychology, points out that authority and likability are key factors in persuasion—and these often hinge on how a message is delivered. As Cialdini explains, “We are more likely to be influenced by people who are authoritative, who appear credible and knowledgeable, regardless of the content of their message.” A deep, resonant voice doesn’t just sound good; it signals authority, commanding respect and attention before a leader even gets to the meat of their message.
Lee Hartley Carter, a renowned strategist and author of Persuasion: Convincing Others When Facts Don’t Seem to Matter, has spent years advising Fortune 500 companies and political campaigns on the art of effective communication. Her work highlights the critical role that emotional resonance and authenticity play in leadership. According to Carter, a voice that truly connects with listeners can make all the difference in persuasion. And let’s be honest, we’ve all been in meetings where the speaker’s monotone droning put us on a one-way trip to Snoozeville. But with the right vocal techniques, you can keep your audience engaged and attentive.
When a leader modulates their voice—using strategic pauses, varying their pitch, and adjusting their pacing—they’re not just holding attention; they’re shaping perceptions. A well-timed pause can create anticipation and emphasize a point, while variations in tone can keep the audience emotionally connected. Sometimes, how you say something lands more impactfully than what you say.
With these foundational ideas in mind, let’s explore how current leaders like Donald Trump and Kamala Harris use their vocal delivery to influence public perception.
Trump vs. Harris: A Vocal Showdown
The 2024 presidential race isn’t just a clash of ideologies—it’s a vocal duel. Donald Trump continues to wield his voice like a weapon, with his recent speech at the 2024 CPAC showcasing his signature assertive tone. As he declared, “We will take back the White House,” his booming voice was designed to project strength and determination to his base. It’s no wonder Trump’s rallies and speeches still feel like rock concerts—he’s mastered the art of keeping the audience on their feet, even if it’s with the same chorus repeated a dozen times. But as The Washington Post pointed out in 2019, while Trump’s “booming and relentless” tone solidifies his image as a strong leader, it’s also divisive. To some, his aggressive style comes off as bullying, deepening the divide between his supporters and detractors.
On the other side of the vocal spectrum is Kamala Harris. Her speech on gun violence prevention in June 2023 is a prime example of her calm, deliberate, and empathetic tone. Harris’s voice flowed with measured cadence, her empathetic tone wrapping around each word like a warm embrace—inviting listeners in rather than overwhelming them. During this speech, her deliberate pauses and slower pace were used to emphasize the gravity of the topic, resonating deeply with her audience. However, Harris faces a different set of challenges—particularly gender biases. As The New York Times explored in 2023, Harris’s vocal delivery is often judged against traditional gender expectations. Some praise her composed demeanor, while others criticize her for lacking the forcefulness they expect from a leader—especially when compared to male counterparts like Trump. This bias reflects broader societal expectations, where women leaders are often caught in a double bind: be too soft, and you’re weak; too strong, and you’re shrill.
Critical Thinking: Separating Content from Delivery
So, how can you navigate the nuances of vocal delivery without getting swayed by style over substance? Here are some tips:
Focus on the Content: Pay close attention to the actual message. Is the candidate backing up their claims with facts? Are they providing clear, logical arguments, or are they relying on emotional appeals and repetition to fill the gaps?
Beware of Emotional Manipulation: Notice when a speaker uses tone and inflection to play on your emotions. While emotions are a powerful communication tool, they shouldn’t replace rational analysis. As Lee Hartley Carter notes, “The leaders who resonate most emotionally with their audience are those who can authentically project the emotions that match their message. It’s not just what they say, but how they make people feel.” Ask yourself if the emotional tone aligns with the facts presented. How to Free Yourself from Emotional Velcro and Create Psychological Safety in the Workplace offers insights on managing emotional responses effectively.
Consider the Whole Picture: Vocal qualities can enhance or distort a candidate’s perceived credibility. Look beyond the delivery to assess their track record, policies, and actions.
Check Your Biases: Be mindful of unconscious biases that might affect how you perceive a candidate’s voice. Gender, race, and other factors can shape our perceptions of leadership qualities in ways we might not even realize.
Diversify Your Sources: Engage with a range of news outlets and analyses to get a balanced view. Different perspectives can help you see beyond any single source’s bias and get a fuller picture of the candidate’s platform and delivery.
Next time you hear a political speech, ask yourself: Are you being swayed by the logic of the argument, or is the speaker’s tone doing most of the work? How does the delivery shape your perception? By sharpening these critical thinking skills, you can better discern the substance behind a candidate’s words, making informed choices that go beyond surface-level impressions.
Summary and Takeaways
In leadership, how you say something can be as important—if not more so—than what you say. As we’ve seen with Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, vocal qualities significantly influence public perception, with societal biases adding another layer of complexity, particularly regarding gender. But by honing critical thinking skills and staying mindful of the difference between content and delivery, we can navigate these complexities and make more informed decisions. As the 2024 election approaches, let’s listen not just to the words our leaders speak, but to how they speak them. After all, it’s not just about sounding persuasive—it’s about leading with integrity. For more on this, see Strengthening Your Voice of Leadership in Uncertain Times.
And as we continue to explore the power of voice, whether in leadership or in technology like AI audiobooks, it’s clear that how we communicate can make all the difference.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
Connecting With People Through the Power of Audiobooks
How are you getting your audience’s attention?
As you know, content is everywhere and the demands for attention are higher every day.
It’s easy for even the most compelling messages to get lost in the noise.
It’s critical to cut through the clutter and truly connect with your audience on a deeper, more personal level.
This is where the benefits of audiobooks now truly shine…
Audiobooks aren’t just a “format;” they’re an intimate experience that brings your words to life. When your voice tells your story, it’s not just heard—it’s felt. The cadence, the emotion, the subtle inflections—they all add layers of meaning that deepen the connection between you and your listener.
It’s an opportunity for deeper connection through content than nearly any other type of content that you will invest your time in creating.
Your message is more than just words on a page; it’s a reflection of your passion, your expertise, and your vision. When you translate that into an audiobook, you’re not just sharing information—you’re forging a connection.
So why aren’t more people producing audiobooks?
There are a few common issues and misconceptions we hear when talking with authors, publishers, editors and book coaches.
Misconception 1: Audiobooks Won’t Reach My Audience
Many authors underestimate the reach and influence of audiobooks. They think that their audience prefers physical books or eBooks and that producing an audiobook won’t add much value. But the truth is, audiobooks have steadily grown in popularity over the years.
52% of all U.S. adults have listened to an audiobook in their lifetime, and in 2023, revenue increased by 9% to $2 billion, according to the Audio Publishers Association.
Moreover, audiobooks can expand your reach to people with disabilities or those who prefer auditory learning. For many, reading can be a challenge due to visual impairments or dyslexia. Audiobooks offer an inclusive way for these individuals to enjoy your work without barriers.
By not offering an audiobook, you could be missing out on connecting with a whole segment of your audience who prefers consuming content in this format.
Misconception 2: Audiobooks Now Aren’t a Good Investment
Another common misconception is that producing audiobooks now requires a costly investment with little return. However, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Audiobooks can dramatically increase your audience, influence, and income. An audiobook has the potential to generate revenue indefinitely. Plus, with platforms like Audible, Google Play, Apple Books, and even Spotify, it’s easier than ever to distribute your audiobook to a global audience.
Authors are often surprised to learn that they don’t have to give away their royalties or go through a complicated process to see a return on their investment. The key is to work with an experienced team that understands how to navigate the audiobook market effectively.
Misconception 3: Audiobook Production is Complicated and Time-Consuming
Perhaps the most common reason authors hesitate to create an audiobook is the belief that it’s a complicated, time-consuming process. Many authors don’t know where to start or feel overwhelmed by the technical aspects of audiobook production. This is where working with a partner like Twin Flames Studios can make all the difference. We handle everything—from recording and editing to distribution—so you can focus on what you do best: telling your story. Our streamlined process ensures that your audiobook is produced to the highest quality standards while allowing you to maintain full creative control.
Let’s Create Audio Magic Together
The world of audiobooks is rich with opportunity, and there’s never been a better time to explore it.
Ready to take the next step?
I’m hosting an in-depth webinar on September 19th, 2024 at 12 PM Eastern that will show you how to boost your bottom line, expand your audience, and create an audiobook that will give you content for years to come. This is where you start.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
We interrupt this Hot Girl Summer for an Emotional Velcro Vacation!
Thus far, 2024 has been characterized with the typical uncertainty we all experience during a presidential election year, regardless of politics. But add the extra seasoning of social and economic unrest, and that is one spicy meatball!
As a leader, do you feel like you’re carrying the weight of their world on your shoulders?
Need some quick ways to reduce stress without sacrificing productivity?
What is Emotional Velcro?
Simply, it’s the stress, anxiety, and emotional baggage you accumulate over time when interacting with other people.
It’s the “waxy buildup” of emotional residue that you often unconsciously adopt when leading teams, parent kids, partners, friends, and so on.
Taking Your Emotional Velcro Vacation
It’s time for some much-deserved relief and rejuvenation.
When you are stressed, ask yourself, “Why am I feeling this way?”
Are you carrying the emotions of someone else, even by accident? Figuring out the source of the emotional velcro can help bring about immediate relief or at least help you get to the next step.
First, talk with someone else like a coach, counselor or other trusted source. Or simply spend some time in reflection and analysis to discover the truth inside yourself or about the situation.
For some quick relief or practice, here are two vocal techniques you can use right now: sigh and rant. It’s like the “bend and snap” of 2024.
A deep sigh triggers your parasympathetic nervous system and your body’s relaxation response. It’s easy to do, and you can do this anywhere – which is why it’s one of my favorite techniques.
And the “rant” in question here is actually much less long-winded than it sounds. When I say “rant” I’m talking about unleashing a single word, done in a specific way that also has fantastic benefits for your nervous system.
Remember, taking care of your emotional well-being is not a luxury; it’s a necessity. So, take that first step today and start shedding the Emotional Velcro that’s holding you back. Your future self will thank you.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
About Tina Dietz:
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.
Audiobook sales are the most rapidly growing segment of the publishing industry. Registering double-digit revenue growth for the past few years, it is having a renaissance that can no longer be ignored. How can authors capitalize on this massive opportunity? Robin Colucci brings an expert on to the podcast to help us understand this booming industry. Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert. Her company, Twin Flames Studios, helps authors and experts amplify their voices through audiobooks, podcasting, and other means. Listen to her discussion with Robin and learn why you should be looking into audiobooks as the new golden goose in publishing.
The Renaissance of Audiobooks and How to Capitalize on It with Tina Dietz
Our topic is audiobooks. Audiobooks sales and consumption have been booming. This is the most rapidly growing segment of the publishing industry. It’s been on a growth surge for the last few years of double-digit revenue growth in the field of audiobooks. In 2019, we had another epic year of audiobook sales with 16% growth. The total sales in audiobooks were $1.2 billion. This is a phenomenal thing that’s occurring. I wanted to bring on an expert who could help us understand a little bit more about audiobooks, how authors should be thinking about audiobooks, and what we might be able to do as authors to capitalize on this massive opportunity. With that in mind, I have brought on Tina Dietz.
Tina is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert who has been featured in media outlets including ABC, Inc., The Huffington Post, and Forbes. Tina’s first podcast, the The Start Something Show was named by Inc. Magazine as one of the Top 35 Podcasts For Entrepreneurs. Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, amplifies the messages of experts globally to their target markets via audiobooks, podcasting, and leadership. Tina divides her time between the US and Costa Rica where she’s part of a leadership team building a conscious community called Vista Mundo. Without further ado, let’s welcome Tina.
It’s my absolute pleasure, Robin. Thanks for having me.
I’m excited to speak with you because even though I’ve been in the publishing world for many years and long before there was such a thing as audiobooks, it’s an area that I don’t know a whole lot about. I’m as excited for myself to learn as I am for our readers.
It’s an interesting world and industry. I’m happy to share.
Book marketing is an evergreen thing. A little bit every day is better than a big push once.
We all know what an audiobook is. A lot of us listen and have them. Audible is the most famous platform for an audiobook. Something I learned or at least got a taste of in our previous conversations is there are other platforms. I want to know a little bit about that because as I said, this is where you have “newbie Robin.”
Audible is the 500-pound gorilla in the room. They’d been around for a long time. Audiobooks have been around in one format or another. Since 1929 was the first audiobook, which was on an album. Audiobooks were on albums and then they were on tapes. A lot of us remember Books on Tape for years then moved to CDs and then, of course, it moved digitally. It was in the digital transition that happened that audiobooks have received a huge resurgence and a huge renaissance.
Prior to that, one of the first audiobooks I listened to as a young adult was Deepak Chopra’s Magical Mind, Magical Body. It was 12 or 16 tapes. I could not keep track of those damn tapes. I was always like, “What tape is next? I don’t remember which one I was listening to.” When digital audiobooks came about, it changed the game and much like the iPod Nano and the iPod in general changed music. Audiobooks changed in the same medium. Audiobooks, music, podcast, all of this audio content has had a tremendous rise in the last few years.
Audiobook Renaissance: Audiobooks are not as popular outside of the English-speaking world. However, they’re having a tremendous rise in countries like China and India.(Image via The Author's Corner)
It’s such a drastic thing that in my mind, there weren’t audiobooks available. Luckily, I haven’t been in the publishing industry since 1929, so that’s a relief. It’s interesting because you’re right. As soon as you started saying it, I’m like, “the tapes!” It was clumsy. It was difficult to manage. You had to keep track of where you were. You could lose one and lose a whole chunk of the book, and you had to be home. You had to be somewhere where you could also use the equipment.
If you didn’t have a car and Walkmans, things like that, that’s where things got more popular in that era. Prior to that, with albums, you couldn’t do that. I remember being a little kid sitting in front of my record player, having the book, and record from Disney. When Tinkerbell rings her little bell, it’s time to turn the page. I loved those when I was growing up. Those were fun. It was part of learning how to read. Audiobooks have this lovely, rich tradition, but because we live in such a different era now with the internet, digital, Bluetooth, and all the technology we have, as you said, the dots don’t necessarily get connected between the two.
Audible, in that pivot, does hold more than 60% of the market share in audiobooks worldwide. Audiobooks are not as popular in other places of the world outside of the English-speaking Western cultures. However, they’re having a tremendous rise in countries like China and India as the markets have opened up. I’m waiting with a bowl of popcorn. I’m excited to see what’s going to happen there. Going back to your original question, there are a lot more outlets than that.
There are more than 40 other audiobook outlets. This goes everywhere from your libraries. Most people get audiobooks out of their libraries. Those are usually using apps like OverDrive and Libby and sometimes Hoopla. Those are the three big ones for libraries. Those are the apps that they go through. There’s also Audiobooks.com, Downpour, Scribd. Blackstone has their own thing. You can purchase audiobooks through NOOK and other places as well. There’s a large distribution world for audiobooks out there.
I’m curious when a library purchases an audiobook, do they purchase a license or do they purchase a single audiobook like they put a book on the shelf?
The world of libraries does work differently than the retail world and it’s not an area that I have a tremendous depth of expertise. I’ll be transparent about that. To get on the radar of libraries is a lot more challenging. It depends on the types of titles that they’re looking for and their yearly budget mandate. Every community is different. As you can imagine, the number of libraries across the US alone is huge. It’s in the tens of thousands.
Getting into libraries can be an entire strategy in and of itself. The way to get on the radar of libraries is a little opaque because you can’t campaign libraries. You could but it’s a little different. The licensing works different for libraries. They have to purchase more than one license in order to be able to pass it around, so to speak. There are some people in the industry who specialize in selling books to libraries. The audiobook and the book process for purchasing to libraries is, from what I understand, quite similar.
Make a note to get me that contact. That could be also an interest.
It’s a great niche.
I did a little research for a client. They were writing a book that was more for school-age kids. There are over 46,000 school libraries, nevermind other libraries. In K-12, there were over 46,000 libraries in the US at that time. There are all these different platforms but Audible has the lion’s share. I’m curious when you’re working with a client on an audiobook, since we jumped in distribution, what is your goal when someone comes to you for help with an audiobook? Do you focus on Audible or do you try to get them any? How do you look at all these platforms that are available as part of your strategy?
We have to look at the overall goals of the author. We work with non-fiction authors. Fiction goals and non-fiction goals are very different worlds. Generally, the goals with the fiction author is to sell copies. That’s the only name of the game. Whereas a nonfiction author has their book. It’s being used in service of building their platform. Selling copies is important but if you’re selling bulk copies of your book, you’re more likely to sell them in bulk when you’re speaking or to be handed out as a promotional item as a loss leader, or various other things.
Getting speaking gigs, attracting clients, getting press, media attention, all of those things. The goals are different so the strategies are different. What binds the two together is, first of all, distribution platforms. Secondly, everybody does want to sell copies and wants visibility. The third thing is that book marketing, it’s you and I could agree, is an evergreen thing. A little bit every day is better than a big push once. That’s where authors get tired. We could have a whole conversation about that.
As you said, with the non-fiction authors especially, I always tell my clients, “Look at what activities you already are doing to grow your business or you know you should be doing and do those to promote your book because it will pay you off way bigger.” It keeps the book in the conversation that way too.
Going back to your question about what we focus on: We have to look at the goals and the overall strategy of the company or the individual first. What do you want your audiobook to do for you? What do you already have in place? Do you have a marketing team? Do you already have strategies for your book? How is this going to dovetail with all of that? Usually, in terms of distribution, what we end up recommending for the most part, particularly for a newer book. If you have a book coming out as a launch and the audiobook is coming out right around the same time as your book is launching or say within six months afterwards, then what ends up happening is they’ll be distributed exclusively through Audible, Amazon, and Apple Books for the first year, which takes advantage of a couple of things. One is a higher royalty rate. Royalty rates for exclusive distribution of 40% versus 25% for non-exclusive distribution. The other thing it takes advantage of is being able to focus on pushing your marketing, your customers, and your audience at one platform.
Amazon, Audible and Apple Books, that’s one?
Technically, that’s considered exclusive distribution because Audible and Amazon are the same company and Apple Books has an agreement with Audible for distribution. It’s an automatic also-run thing.
I’m going to guess Apple Books is the second biggest platform. Would that be accurate?
No, because Apple only holds 10% of the cell phone market. It seems like it’s everywhere but on a worldwide basis, Android is a much bigger player in terms of the cell phone markets. Apple is amazing in their marketing and they’re amazing at creating evangelists for their brand.
Audiobook Renaissance: The most important factor in someone deciding to purchase an audiobook is the quality of the narration. (Image via The Author's Corner)
This exclusive distribution, you said for the first year.
Yes. You then can evaluate after the first year and decide if you want to continue on or if you want to go with non-exclusive and then get the audiobook out to a bunch of more platforms.
What would be a good reason to be on? I’m wondering, if you’re getting 40% royalty and then it goes down to 25% royalty, does it ever add up like getting that extra market share offsets the decrease in the royalties?
It comes down again to marketing and the goals. If you don’t market, it’s not going to make any difference either way what it comes down to. It’s a marketing opportunity to change your distribution. Once you have your book on other platforms, you can make announcements about it like, “The audiobook is now available here. Did you know that this existed?” Much of marketing in our digital age, particularly on the 24-hour news cycle that is social media is coming up with interesting little, “Did you know,” pieces of information. It’s much like being nominated for a book award, getting a book award, having your book in a new place, or having a speaking opportunity. These are all little snippets of information to offer to your audience to stay top of mind. Additional distribution creates an additional opportunity for content to market your book.
What I’m getting out of this is that you’re adding these other distribution platforms, piecemeal, not all at once.
You submit it all at once but they tend to come in onesie-twosie in their approval process because you’re using a portal. The portals that we use and these are a self-serve portal. Not just for publishers but for people who want to self-publish as well. ACX.com is the common self-publishing backend for audiobooks for Audible. FindawayVoices.com can be also used for Audible but it will also help to get your book up to 40 additional platforms. Not everybody is going to take your book but a lot of them will.
What should I have asked you about the distribution that I didn’t?
That’s a lot of the broad strokes of that particular thing. The only thing about distribution that people need to know is that at least in the beginning, it’s something you want to stay on top of and go in. Read your monthly reports, get familiar with the notations that are made because that’s market research for you. What channels are working for you? What is not working for you? What are your best places to define readers? Certain distribution channels also, individually, if you look into them, may have more opportunities for you to promote your book in different ways.
Some paid opportunities usually come up. For example, Findaway and there’s this program called CHIRP, it sends out a daily email for audiobook deals. You can submit your audiobook to CHIRP once it’s been accepted through these other channels. Your book gets pushed out on a daily email to over 100,000 people. Now, you’re going to give them a deep discount on the audiobook as a result. If you’re talking about nonfiction and building an audience, building notoriety, all of that, that can be to your advantage.
I want to talk a little bit about audiobook production because one thing that we see is there seems to be two tracks. We either have the author themselves read the book or there’s a voiceover artist.
That is correct. Occasionally, that’s a hybrid of the two. That’s our third option.
Talk to me a little bit about what are the things like if an author comes to you and they’re like, “I’m not sure if I should read it myself or if I should hire a voiceover artist.” What are some of the things that an author should be thinking about when you’re looking for it?
One of the things the author should be thinking about, again, comes back to the purpose of the book. First of all, most authors who write non-fiction who are building a platform will come to me and say, “I have to narrate my book. Nobody can do it like me.” That is the first assumption that we question because that may be true. However, the most important factor in someone deciding to purchase an audiobook is the quality of the narration. Even if the author can read the book out loud in a way that they feel characterizes the book correctly, whether that translates or not to a listener receiving it the way it’s intended is an entirely different matter. They may feel like, “This is how I need it to be read,” but their listener may be going, “That is not what you’re portraying.” That is one of the things we have to take a look at and evaluate.
A lot of the folks we work with, our speakers narrating an audiobook is different than public speaking. It’s a tool. It’s a different animal. When you’re up on a stage, public speaking, you’re speaking one to many whereas on a podcast or a narration, you’re speaking one-to-one. You can’t get out there and be like, “Ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to be doing all of this and talk about audiobooks.” It blows your face off. You also can’t be boring but you have to slow down with an audiobook because audiobooks are at a slower pace than most other kinds of speaking. There’s a balance there. The breathing is different.
Recording an audiobook takes time and that’s if you hire a professional. If you want to go DIY, double that time and add a bottle of vodka.
Even the duration of time that you have to spend recording an audiobook—it’s not just a matter of reading the book. It’s reading the book in such a way that it sounds like you’re not reading it. There are all of these factors that go into it. In the early days of developing the company and the services and all of that, we did experiment with a number of different ways of working with authors who wanted to narrate their own books because it is an important thing. About 1/3 of our authors self-narrate and about 2/3 work with a professional narrator. That’s the way it shakes out. Some because they don’t have a great voice for narration.
They’re great for a keynote, but if you had to listen to them for 6 or 7 hours, no. Again, a different animal. There may be some physical issues. One of my favorite authors, brilliant book, brilliant man, and a rare form of head-neck cancer. He couldn’t narrate his entire book. There was no way. We did what I like to call the Tony Robbins Sandwich with his book. Tony Robbins narrates the first chapters and the last chapter of his book and has a professional narrator do the middle. That’s what we did with that particular client. It worked out well. Those are some of the factors.
Audiobook Renaissance: There need to be more opportunities for a diversity of narrators. One of the reasons people didn’t listen to audiobooks more is because they were boring.(Image via The Author's Corner)
There’s something in here because when you were talking about a speaker on stage being one-to-many, an audiobook is a one-on-one. I want to point out an idea that goes along with that. It’s something that I speak about fairly regularly is this idea of how a book is the best way when you’re thinking about a marketing avenue to create intimacy to your prospective client or with your reader when we’re talking non-fiction. It’s often your prospective clients or somebody who’s going to be influenced by you in some way. What you’re saying about audiobooks and even the tone of the voice, the pace of the speech, volume, and everything else, I never thought of it before but you’re right. It is a one-on-one conversation, just like the writing is but it’s important to get that across. It’s even different if you’re standing at a book signing in front of the room and reading an excerpt.
You have more bodies there and different energy.
That is one-to-many, but an audiobook is a one-on-one conversation. One of the things is vocal quality. Even the amount of time the author is willing or able to—
The time is a big factor. I’ll give you simple math, 10,000 words of a book are about one hour of audio. You’ve got 40,000-word book, you’ve got about a four-hour audiobook. That four hours of the audiobook is going to take about 10 to 12 hours of recording time. This is working with a professional organization like us. This is not DIY. For DIY, double that and add a bottle of vodka. It’s not just me saying this and do a shot for every hour of audiobook you do, it’s a drinking game. Split up into 2 to 3-hour chunks because that’s about as far as you can go with our vocal fatigue and energy issues and all of that.
What we do to work with the author and take the technology out of their hands and also to give them the objective feedback and a person to play off of, is we do the full direction of our audiobooks, but we do it remotely. We have software we’re able to remote in to wherever the author is anywhere in the world, help them make sure that their sound is tuned correctly, we’ll suggest a microphone, make sure they’re in the right place in their home or office to record. We then fully direct and record the audiobook for them to the entire process. That creates a wonderful product. It also takes a lot of the stress and pressure off of the author. All they have to do is focus on delivering their message and being natural about it and that helps a lot.
You’re able to give them feedback.
Yes, so it makes it a lot easier to catch issues. A lot of our authors have charts, graphs, and exercises in their books. There are industry standards on how to narrate those. We’re able to live coach people through all that process as well.
Let’s talk a little bit about the other side of hiring vocal artists to record your audiobook. What are some of the things that you advise authors to consider when they’re trying to make that decision? Let’s say they’ve decided, “I’d like to use the voiceover artists.” What are some of the things that they should be thinking about as they’re deciding? What’s that going to look like?
I have done professional narration. My background's as a therapist. As an entrepreneur of multiple businesses, did business coaching for years, but the voice acting was a paid hobby for me because I love a stage and a microphone. The masterclasses I took on audiobook narration had me have this epiphany about all my colleagues and clients who are doing bestseller campaigns, why aren’t they doing audiobooks? That was the rabbit hole I went down. That’s how I got there.
Between the podcasting and the audiobooks, microphones are a big part of my day one way or another. Narration and voiceover work in its industry. It has its own language and standards. Coming into that world as an author or as a business owner, there are some things you need to know about that industry. When we send out auditions, there are key pieces of information you need to provide to an author in terms of, what are you paying? What section of the book do you choose for an audition and how long it is? Where do you choose from the book?
Other key pieces of information that the narrator is going to need. If you want somebody to emulate your energy and have similar qualities to your voice being able to articulate, what are those qualities that are most important? What are the key pieces that somebody needs to know if the book is going to, first of all, resonate with them and what they need to deliver to you in terms of an audition? A lot of mistakes that authors make doing this on their own are putting an audition piece out that’s way too long and then being offended when somebody only sends back one minute of an audition. Auditions need to be short. Another thing that happens a lot is getting into the production of the audiobook and not having been clear upfront about the number of characters or the type of characters, even in non-fiction.
A lot of the pronunciation issues can come in regionalisms. We had an issue a while back. We keep a running list of these and this one we hadn’t run into yet. We had 38 replacements. You can’t go back when in audio like you can in text and do a find and replace. This narrator had to go back and we worked with the other because normally, we wouldn’t even allow that change at the end. That’s something that needs to be discussed upfront. Fortunately, the narrator was game and it all worked out but she would have had to replace entire paragraphs or entire sentences depending on the situation in the book. These are the things we get ahead of and get on top of. Occasionally, things happen as I mentioned. We get ahead of it 99% more than working through it on your own. Those are a few things.
What is the question that an author asks themselves even going into that? How do they know to tell somebody that they want that? It made me think of The Chicago Manual of Style which we both know is the publishing industry bible for punctuation and everything. It’s a perfect book except you have to know there might be a mistake to look for the correct way. How do you help authors figure out what to ask for in even a situation like that?
We have a whole onboarding process where we go through things like that. We have protocols, guidelines, and all of these things that we walk people and authors through to help prevent things like this. Everything from names to medical terminology and other types of regionalisms even down to looking at, “Are there any characters in your book, even if it’s nonfiction, who are they? What do they sound like?” One of my favorite books we ever did so far is called Tiger Bravo’s War. It is a ten-hour audiobook about the Vietnam War that I would put up against Ken Burns any day of the week.
Our narrator who works with us in the company now on our podcasting divisions. He’s a wonderful guy named David White. He did an incredible job of nuancing about 15 or 20 different soldiers’ voices inside of this documentary-style memoir. Getting those characters out front, getting a sense of who they are, and having the narrator demonstrate that before you get too deep into the production, that’s important.
I want to bring up something because you cleared a memory for me of an audiobook that I was listening to and I was enjoying. I believe the author Red Moskoff. They did a character and they brought in a different voice. By the way, this was traditionally published—New York Times. Not only was it a terrible Middle Eastern accent, it was so bad that it sounded racist to me. It’s offensively bad.
They went full Apu from the Simpsons.
That’s a perfect analogy. I was going to say it was like a Breakfast at Tiffany’s nightmare. I still enjoyed the book but every time that would happen, unfortunately, it was more than once in the manuscript. I would cringe and it nearly ruined the experience for me. What about characterization, especially when it’s clearly across cultural narrations? This seems to me to be a real potential minefield. If you could you say a little bit about that.
There is always something to get better at.
It can be. We produced a book that was author narrated and it was an emotional book. As I’m talking with potential clients and scanning through their books, a lot of them are highly emotional. I was crying in the first two pages of this guy’s book. He was writing it and he was an angry, abusive man. It was about his healing journey and what he wanted men to know. He had traveled to many countries as a professional Rugby player. He had voices of these people from different countries and cultures. He had a lot of facility in doing this.
He was able to slip into their skins—which most authors don’t have that ability to do. One of the things that the director did is he went and listened to other authentic accents to see how far off or how far on the author was and to make sure it didn’t come off as mocking or disrespectful in any way. There are ways to handle it in the direction process. Professional narrators are sensitive to this because they want things to be represented accurately. That comes down to the audition process and vetting people.
I didn’t feel like we needed the accent in that book I’m telling you.
A lot of times it’s not necessary or there’s a shade. You don’t have to hit it hard.
Why is this even happening?
It happens a lot with male narrators doing female voices as well. Some are brilliant at it. Some of them will characterize female voices as whiny, shrewish, or childish. That’s an issue in the industry that gets brought up regularly and on both sides. Women doing male voices, men doing women’s voices because it’s one narrator. Full cast recordings are still quite rare in the industry because of the cost of production. Some of them are great, like The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman, but particularly in non-fiction full-cast recording.
I’m glad we got a chance to talk about that. It left quite an impression on me.
If we have culturally diverse authors and one of our authors is from China. We opted not to have him do the narration. His articulation isn’t quite up to speed. It might be hard for the listener. He’s a brilliant speaker from the stage—he’s fantastic. But 8 to 10 hours on an audiobook will be harder. One of our biggest challenges has been finding somebody who is Chinese-American or Chinese immigrated to the US, a professional narrator who can do this voice authentically.
Have a hint of the authentic accent without being thick.
It needs to be real.
That’s another aspect of this. If the author is an immigrant or something in the US.
We have several books in the pipeline that we know our narrator searches expanded because there need to be more opportunities for a diversity of narrators. For years, it was, “This is Audible. I’m an Audible guy.” That’s one of the reasons people didn’t listen to audiobooks because they were boring.
“I’m a suburban white man Audible.”
“Can you see my blue suit just from the tone of my voice? I bet you can.”
“On weekends, I wear khakis.”
“I play golf.” I’m a professional instigator, I should warn you.
What I wanted to say is this sounds like a heck of an opportunity. Let’s talk a little bit about investment-wise. What’s the difference when we hire an artist to record our audiobook for us versus doing it ourselves?
There are a couple of levels. We try to keep the cost of author narration and the cost of professional narration very similar. The business model we’ve created has allowed for that because counterintuitively to a lot of people, it used to be in our company that author narration was way more expensive. I run into that all the time but think about it. We had to train the author on a whole new skillset. We had to research studios. We had to pay studio time, which is hourly, and studio time, depending on where you are in the world, is anywhere from $50 to $250 an hour. The editing was a lot more intensive because we weren’t doing what’s called Punch and Roll recording. We weren’t doing live direction. Studios will give you a sound engineer who’ll tell you if you’re screwing up but they just record the whole session. We stop, back up, and record again to get rid of a lot of those errors.
The comfort level of the author was tense because even with training them ahead of time, it was crazy. All of those factors make for a much more expensive prospect. We’ve got things down and we have a negotiated rate with our narrators that we’ve got a sweet spot. However, we do also have a premium level for narrators. These are folks who are in the Actor’s Union, SAG-AFTRA. The minimum required hourly rate to work with those folks is $225 an hour. That’s what’s called a per finished hour rate. That can include multiple things. That’s not studio hours. I go back to that 40,000-word book is four hours long. It would be $225 for four hours. That’s the math we’re talking about here. We’re not talking about 15, 20 hours in a studio at $225 an hour.
Audiobook Renaissance: It’s always better to experiment, beta test, and interest focus group things out before making a big launch. (Image via The Author's Corner)
That’s a lot more reasonable than I would have been imagining.
The average audiobook that we produce is somewhere in the $2,800 to $5,000 range.
I’ve heard of people charging 2 to 4 times.
It can get high depending on how much margin they’re adding. If you’re working out of New York or LA, your price automatically goes up because the cost of production is much higher in those cities.
If you’re hiring the talent or as you said, you were able to do it remotely, that’s not as expensive.
All the companies I’ve ever owned, except for my first one, was in completely remote. For years, we’ve been 100%t remote and my team is across North America and Europe.
A lot of businesses like mine are similar. We were already working remotely. The pandemic added my social life to the remote category.
I lost all my coffee offices for a while. I know that talk about first world problems, but nonetheless.
This has been informative. We talked about production, distribution, costs, and talent. The thing that’s occurring to me now is, you don’t have to reveal any names or anything. Do you have any stories of audiobooks either gone extremely well or horribly wrong? I always love a good story.
One of the reasons we changed the way we were doing things and I looked for solutions around author narration is because of both the amount of time that it took to work with authors that way and then having to go to the studio and the cost involved. Like with many things in business, a lot of what has to be handled upfront is expectation management. For people who don’t understand what it takes to edit audio and rerecord audio versus text, we call it a repeated education process and 90% of people get it. We occasionally do end up with someone who resists the training and coaching, and then after recording wants to go back and rerecord the whole thing because “now they have a handle on it” and think that’s included.
That is not the way that works. You can’t go back and do another ten hours of recording because you feel like it. You haven’t taken the coaching and been willing to do the work that needs to be done. Similarly, managing expectations on the professionally narrated side of things, it’s important upfront to get all of the expectations, voices, cadence, timing, pacing, and all these things are done. We do all that in what’s called the first fifteen of the book. We take about the first 15, 20 minutes, produce it, and make sure that it’s what the author wants before we produce the rest of the book.
We have an audiobook that created a tremendous amount of havoc in the author’s life because they realized in listening back to their own work, that they hated their work and wanted to shutter their company. It was intense. In hearing a third party deliver their work back to them, they had a breakdown. I’m a therapist by training but they were also in a different country, difficult to reach, and a long time difference. It ended up being an abandoned project with them not paying their bill because they decided to not move forward with their company. That resulted in some policy changes on our side of things.
Once you’ve been in business for a while, there are always a few items in the contract that were created in response to a specific situation.
That’s why contracts end up being so long.
They’re like, “We can’t let that happen again. Let’s set this.”
Making people’s initials in certain paragraphs is something we do because it’s easy like the terms and condition page to scroll to the bottom and check, “I have read it.” It is important to read. I don’t read all the terms and conditions either, but in contracts, I definitely read every word because there could be some questions there.
I’m thinking about that. They should have paid you but it could have been a great thing that happened for them.
That’s the thing and I don’t disagree. It was a case of somebody who was extremely well-meaning, had gone out, and they were putting themselves forward as an expert in an area that they had no experience in. It was all academic knowledge. It was all from synthesizing reading and going to workshops. They had never had a single client ever. They, unfortunately, spent over six figures in trying to launch this company. This is a lesson in entrepreneurship. I know there’s somebody out there who needs to know this. I’ve never told this story or alluded to this story anywhere in the media before. I built many businesses and companies my time and helped many other people do the same. It’s much better to experiment, beta test, and interest focus group things out before you do a big website, a book launch, or anything like that.
I want to add to that because this has shown up many times in my business that somebody will come to me in that situation. They’re like, “I want help writing a book.” I’ll be like, “Cool but I’m not going to be the one helping you.” You have no business writing a book about your expertise until you’ve developed some expertise. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who will tell people, “You need a book so you can have a business.” It isn’t true. It’s such a dramatic illustration of a big problem but this is investing over six figures to launch a brand with nothing behind it. By the time he came to you, most of that money was spent.
It doesn’t matter what religion you are. When it comes to sales, you have to become a Buddhist at that moment.
This is an aftereffect of it.
I will let people write a booklet. Quick turnaround, test, and we do help people with that. That’s why I came up with that idea, by the way, was because I turned away thousands of people over the last years who came to me wanting to write a book in exactly that situation and said, “Go become an expert and then come back.”
Come back when you have some chops in what you’re doing. That happens more on the podcasting side of our company. I will pivot people from, “I need to start a podcast.” “No, you don’t need to start a podcast. You need to build some clientele, sell some stuff, and be in business.” I’ll pivot them from having their own podcast to podcast guesting. That’s a great way both to network, to generate content, to build authority, all of those things that you want to do without the massive commitment that it is to have a quality podcast.
I know we’re a little off-topic, but I agree with you. There are people reading this who need to know this. When people start a podcast, what they need to do is get clients. When they decide to write a book, what they need to do is get clients or do an audiobook. The problem is if it feels productive. They can get up in the morning and say, “I’m growing my business,” “I’m recording a podcast,” or “I’m working on my book.” What they’re not seeing is what they’re avoiding. If people don’t have clients yet and everything’s theoretical, it’s because they don’t feel comfortable with doing sales.
A lot of what shows up looking like productivity is an expensive, very long avoidance strategy that could eat up somebody’s entire savings and set them back in terms of their ability to generate momentum in their business because they’re trying to avoid sales subconsciously. What’s they’re saying is, “This is what I do. This is how much it costs, Mastercard, American Express, or Visa.” That’s what innate and they can tell themselves they’re being productive. That’s why it’s so destructive when people tell people that. It’s a double whammy. When they figure it out, their resources are drained.
I bootstrapped my businesses in the beginning for years working other jobs, whatnot is exploring, and all of that. Sometimes you get sold the dream. I grew up in a situation, my parents owned a business, and I was surrounded by sales. Even I wasn’t comfortable with sales until I was in my late 20s, early 30s, it’s always something to learn. There’s always something to master or get better at. It never has anything to do with making the sale, it has everything to do with your internal conversation, your personal growth, and your ability to create relationships. The sales has nothing to do with sales.
We can do a whole episode on sales. I look at it that the sales conversation is a quest for clarity and to help the person that I’m on the phone will come to a place of clarity. If the clarity dictates that we work together, we work together. If the clarity dictates that we don’t work together, we don’t work together. That takes all of the pressure off everybody. I don’t feel pressure to make the sale and they don’t feel pressured too or people like they’re being sold because that’s not what the conversation is about.
This was a mentor of mine that created a lot of clarity for me around sales. Robin, how do you feel about cookies?
I love cookies.
If I were to bake a plate of cookies, I would say, “Robin, would you like a cookie?” Assuming we were together and not social distancing, you would say yes, right?
Yes.
If I were in a room, I walked around, and I offered 100 people a cookie, some people are going to say yes and some people are going to say no. The people who say no, is there anything wrong with my cookie?
Nothing is wrong with your cookie.
The people who say yes, is there anything magical about that cookie special or does it mean anything?
No.
There are all reasons they could have said no. They could be diabetic, not like that particular cookie, allergic to one of the ingredients, not hungry, or on a diet. The cookie has nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with my worth or even with my ability as a baker. People say yes or no. Ultimately, you go out into the world and you think about “selling something.” You’re offering them your cookie, and there’s nothing wrong with your cookie.
That’s a great analogy. That was the hardest thing for me to get over because I went from a place of being afraid of sales to I’m almost addicted to sales. I love selling. It’s fun. The big thing that I had to get over was taking it personally either I was lacking or what’s wrong with me. That’s how I did. I was having a lot of conversations in a short period of time to the point where I didn’t care.
That happens a lot with people learning how to like their own voices. They have to listen to themselves over and over again. I say all the time, “It doesn’t matter what religion you are. When it comes to sales, you have to become a Buddhist at that moment. You just have to practice non-attachment.” Temporary conversion. You can convert back afterward.
You can pick up all your baggage. Tina, this has been wonderful and informative. Thank you for sharing your insight, wisdom, and great stories with us.
Thanks, Robin. This has been awesome. I appreciate it.
Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and influence marketing expert who has been featured on media outlets including ABC, Inc.com, Huffington Post and Forbes. Tina’s first podcast, The StartSomething Show, was named by INC magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs.
In 2016, Tina was the recipient of the Evolutionary Business Council MORE award and in 2017 she received the award for Outstanding Audio Company from The Winner’s Circle. She is also a member of the EBC leadership body and a founding member of the Forbes Coaches Council. Tina was also the lead interviewer in the podcasting documentary “The Messengers” and featured in the film.Tina splits her time between the US and Costa Rica where she’s part of the leadership team building a community of conscious leaders called Vista Mundo.
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I invite you to join Julia Steele and me at the VID19 Conference and learn how to strengthen your voice of leadership in uncertain times
Hi, everyone, and welcome to day eight of the VID19 Conference. My name is Julia Steele, I'm the creator and host. I cannot believe we are on day eight already, but days are flying by and the feedback has been absolutely brilliant. So, thank you so much for everyone that has reached out to me and the other contributors. It's great to see you all getting so much value from this conference.
It's traditional in Australia to acknowledge the land that we stand on at the start of every conference. So, given we are on a new day, I am just going to acknowledge that I am standing on the land of the Wurundjeri people, of the Kulin Nation. I extend… Sorry, I, I'll start again. I want to acknowledge the land, the land that I stand on, and the people of the Wurundjeri in the Kulin Nation. And I pay my respects to their elders: past, present and emerging. I also extend that to all First Nations people that may be joining from around Australia, and overseas as well.
We are joined by the wonderful Tina Dietz. She joins us all the way from Florida. I just love that this is getting more international by the minute.
So, Tina, thank you so much for joining us. And you're gonna help us sort of explore and strengthen our voice, you know, while we lead through these uncertain times. So I can't wait to, to see where you take us with this. And thanks, again, for joining from Florida.
Oh, it's my pleasure. Anytime we can reach out to each other across the globe, it's always a privilege. So I really appreciate that.
Okay, so leading in uncertain times.
I know, Julia, you speak a lot on this as well. So, this is a topic near and dear to my heart. Just to share a little bit about myself.
I've been an entrepreneur for many, many years, many decades, I grew up as one. And I also found myself trained as a therapist. I have been in business for a couple of decades building businesses around the world, more than 20 different industries, and about eight or nine different countries now and counting.
And my company, Twin Flames Studios, works with leaders, executives, trusted brands, and entrepreneurs to help amplify your voice and your message not just to your audience, but also to your team, to new people who are looking to find you. And we do that through audiobooks. We do that through podcasting. And we also do that through what we're going to talk about today, which is vocal leadership. And a lot of people haven't heard about vocal leadership. So, I'll explain more about what that means in just a couple of minutes.
But you know, with everything going on, I'm just, it's funny, I think this is about my—I've always used Zoom a lot, my company has always been mobile so I feel very fortunate. And this time to already be in a place to help other people work with online formats, work with audio formats, because this is what I've been doing now for more than a decade. And it's… But sometimes I am on Zoom so much I question that I actually have a lower half to my body. And it gets a little weird after a while. It's like, “Do I exist from the waist down? I'm not entirely sure.” And I'm also pretty sure that the unofficial tagline of Zoom is “Zoom: Pants optional.” So I don't know if you're wearing pants joining us here today. You don't have to because you're not on camera. Actually, I don't have to either. But I am, I assure you.
But what we're gonna be talking about today, just to—And I'm super curious if you want to put into the chat, anything about what brought you here today? Where you're from? I'm monitoring the chat. So, I will definitely be taking questions as we go along—If there's something that comes up. My preference is to be highly, highly interactive in everything that we're doing here, because the best way that I can serve you is by covering those areas and covering those topics that are going to be most relevant to you. So, as we're going along, if something pops up for you, please do put it in the chat, ask questions again, feel free to introduce yourself, so we kind of know who's out there. We had a really lovely turnout for this today. And I'm excited to get to know you as well.
So how to strengthen your voice of leadership in uncertain times, and what exactly is vocal leadership, and what makes it important?
So vocal leadership encompasses a wide range of topics. And this includes
Your personal vocal mechanics—which we'll talk some about today.
The dynamics of communication
Team communication
It's present in meetings and presentations—when you're live and in person, and you can actually, you know, touch elbows, things like that. It's present when you're in online presentations like this. It is also present in your speaking peer to peer and networking. Anytime that you're using your voice, vocal leadership is present.
The two areas that we don't think about our voices being present, but they are very much present are
The voice of your message or your brand
And how you know who you are and what you stand for—and your values come through that particular modality of your voice.
And the very most important part of vocal leadership, which is your inner voice, and what that tells you, how that informs you because that inner voice that you have—or maybe it's lots of voices, as I can attest to myself. That is one of the things we're also going to discuss today is that inner voice as well as the outer voice—so meetings, presentations, sales conversations, conventions, conflict resolution, performance review, team collaboration, vocal leadership encompasses all of these areas and has a significant impact on your performance on the culture, on everything that happens.
And the two areas we're going to focus on today to help you be the calm in the storm, are:
The mechanics of some vocal leadership technique to help you lead during meetings and conversations. And these are going to be useful to you in any situation where you're the “leader”—I'm putting that in air quotes, because some of these situations, we don't think of ourselves as leaders. Certainly working with our teams or working with clients, working with freelancers, any of those areas, sure. But you may also be having a leadership role in parenting, taking on being a leader or holding a space of calm in your other relationships with friends or in the community.
And we're also going to be covering ways that you can manage your own inside voice, your internal conversations and habits about what happens, you know, inside of you as you're looking to communicate with other people.
And the key to vocal leadership is aligning these inside and outside voices, being congruent. And that's truly where authenticity lives. And if we're looking to truly be leaders, then authenticity is where we must stand as much as possible at all times.
So, when we start with the vocal leadership mechanics, there are four factors we're going to focus on today—there are far more than that. But the four factors we're going to focus on today that have been shown in research to significantly impact how you're perceived as a leader and your credibility, are:
Articulation
Tempo
Flow
Sonority
I'll say that again, articulation, tempo flow and sonority.
Articulationis how clearly you speak, how understandable your words are. And the more articulate you are—not over articulate, because when we're over articulate, we start to sound like a snob, and nobody likes that. Under articulation, of course, kills your credibility because you start to slur your words, you're not understandable, and then people wonder if you really know what you're talking about. But articulation is important. And particularly since we're talking about online meetings, and non-visual meetings, in many cases, articulation is extra important because people need to be able to understand you. And they need to be able to be very clear on what your words are and how you're speaking.
The second area is tempo. And tempo is arguably the most important factor to focus on. Tempo is your natural speaking speed. Now, I live in Florida, but I'm originally from New York. Not New York City, but Buffalo, New York, on the opposite end of the state. But nonetheless, being from, you know, that area, the Northeast, we tend to speak pretty quickly. That's a natural tone for me, I'm never going to be somebody with a lower, slower, more laid-back tone of voice—like you might find from people from the southern US or from other countries where the cadence is much, much slower. So, it's natural for me to have this slightly faster tempo. Your correct tempo is whatever is right for you. And it is, in research, in all the research studies, probably the top factor in what makes you most credible as a leader and what makes you sound most trustworthy.
This is because it has a lot to do with your breathing. Everything comes from the breath. And when we are breathing to shallowly and our voices start to speed up that's an indication on a very biological level that you're nervous, that maybe you're lying, or that you're angry, depending on how you're presenting to people.
On the opposite side of things, if you're halting and your tempo starts to slow down, then you lose people's attention. And they start to fade off. And they're not really focused on what you're saying. And that's a credibility killer as well. So, the most important thing we can do on the mechanic side of things, first of all, number one, is to focus on our breathing. Practicing your breathing—and this can be do through yogic breathing, it can be through something as simple as what I call “The 4-4-4 Breath” and this is where you inhale on a count of four, you hold for a count of four, and you exhale on a count of four. And this helps normalize your breathing, which helps settle your parasympathetic nervous system, and creates more calm throughout your body, which translates—of course—to your brain, and how you're connecting with your audience, or the person you're sitting in front of, or your child, or whoever it is that you're communicating with. And we hear about breathing a lot. But we don't necessarily always take that advice. If we take a few moments, it can make a tremendous difference in how we're perceived by other people.
The fourth factor is flow. And this is how smoothly your words come out of your mouth. This also is indicative of the dreaded “uhms” and “ahhs”. When you're a public speaker or you give a lot of meetings and presentations always tell you, “Oh, you got to watch how many times you say ‘Um,’ and ‘ah.’” The problem with that is that the more you think about “uhms” and “ahhs,” the more you tend to save them. It's like don't think about pink elephants, and there's the elephant, right? So, if you give yourself some room to let go of being concerned about the “uhms” and “ahhs,” the best thing that you can do is focus on the other person instead of what you're saying. Not on their reaction, but in being present to them, even in an audio-only situation. And we'll talk some more a little bit later about how our audio-only—when we're listening—and how audio-only actually can heighten our senses, and how we interact with that, and how we can trust ourselves and our listening when it's audio-only. When we're in a situation where we are listening to other people, focus on them, be present to them, and many times that will get rid of the “uhms” and “ahhs” because those “uhms” and “ahhs” are indicative of our own brain interrupting us trying to get us to say things a certain way, or questioning ourselves in our internal conversation if we're saying the right thing or not. We get worried about “Oh, what do I have to say next?” And that interruption of train of thought can really damage your flow.
So again, coming back to your breath, keeping yourself calmer will help your flow and help get rid of those “uhms” and “ahhs,” and increase your rate of flow for that extra boost of credibility and leadership.
And the last factor we're focused on today is called sonority. Sonority is the pleasantness of your voice. And in truth, most people, the more they practice these other factors—articulation, tempo, flow—the more you take care of your voice, the more your sonority will rise. Not everybody has a naturally super pleasant voice, but you have to work with the voice that you have. That's the only choice that we have—is to work with the voice that we have. And it's a funny thing, when I speak to groups of people—and I'd be curious as to what happens here with this audience—when I ask the question, “How many of you here like the sound of your own voice?” How many people do you think raise their hand? Yeah, pretty much nobody. About 80% of the room will tell me—on any given room—that they do not like the sound of their own voice. And this goes even for podcasters and professional speakers. Even in rooms like that, I'll get 50 to 60% of the room saying “Ehh, I don't like the sound of my own voice. I like my content, I might be able to own my identity as an expert, but the sound of my voice?” Right?
So, it takes something to get used to the sound of your own voice. And truly the only way out in that situation is through, as the old saying goes. You have to listen to yourself back and learn how to appreciate sometimes you just have to get used to it like a habit over and over again—listening to yourself doing interviews on podcasts, listening to yourself just doing recordings are around your house with your own musings, and things like that. And find ways that you can appreciate the voice that you have. Even if you are, you know, find yourself concerned about things like an accent, I'm going to ask you to let that go. Because what makes you unique is your voice.
And if you have any concerns about how understandable you are, then we go back to practicing the things like articulation, and tempo, because all of those things are going to help make your voice more understandable, depending on the audience that you're trying to reach.
So, the other factors around sonority that I wanted to touch on are two credibility killers. And these are far more prevalent in North America than they are in any other part of the world. So, I'm very curious for our audience in Australia if you see this as well. And those two credibility killers are what we call Up Talk and Vocal Fry.
So up talk is where you make every statement sound like a question. And that really makes you sound not credible. Because you make you sound like you don't know what you're doing. And that's an example of what up talk sounds like. Most people will up talk the end of their sentences when they're not entirely sure how their message is going to be received. If you're doing a live networking event, for example, and you have to give a 30-seconds “Hi, my name is so and so. And my business is such and such,” you'll hear a lot of up talk in people sentences, because they're kind of questioning how they're going to be received in the room. This is another good area to ask somebody else, rather than try to figure it out yourself, if this is a habit that you have—it's actually kind of difficult to hear if you do it in the moment, and you can practice will be called downstrokes. So up talk would sound like this: “Hi, my name is Tina Dietz, and my company is Twin Flames Studios. And we help amplify the voices of leaders and authors and companies around the world.” Sounds a little off, right? Speaking that with downstrokes with sounds like this: “Hi, my name is Tina Dietz. And I'm the owner of Twin Flames Studios, where we amplify the voices of leaders and companies and authors all over the world.” Sounds a little different when you get to hear the contrast between the two. So, you can see why that's a bit of a credibility killer.
The other one I mentioned is vocal fry. Now I have a hard time even doing vocal fry because my voice doesn't like to do it. I've trained myself out of it. But if you're familiar with the American celebrities—the Kardashians—these guys are a good example of listening to vocal fry, it makes you sent voice sound like it's a little bit bored or dismissive, because you drop the ends of your sentences down into your throat. And it's kind of a vocal fry kind of sound. You'll also hear this on American radio, on National Public Radio a lot, particularly with the male hosts on shows if you listen to podcasts, you'll hear this quite often in a lot of professional level shows. But the thing is, the reason it's a credibility killer is—and it's not with those guys who are professional hosts or even with the Kardashians—is we're not looking to take advice necessarily from the Kardashians, or from a radio show host who's doing a game show, we're looking to be entertained by them. So, the vocal fry doesn't matter for their credibility because we're not looking for credibility.
But when you take that same vocal fry, and you put it into a situation where somebody's doing a job interview, we find in the research that across the board—regardless of gender, regardless of age, regardless of race or any other demographic situation—if somebody is giving their answers in a job interview with vocal fry, they are across the board seen as less trustworthy, less credible, and less hirable. So, it is a habit that we do take try to with our leaders try to coach you out of because it can be damaging, particularly if it's done a lot. Here or there you are having a bad voice day, fine. But habitually? Not so good. So those are the two credibility killers with sonority.
Now when we're in a meeting, and you're running something with a team or you're running a program, you can keep these factors in mind. But what's more important is that you practice them ahead of time. So, articulation practicing with things like tongue twisters, and facial exercises are really important.
Tempo, as I mentioned before, the best thing you can do to work with tempo is to work with your breathing. And that tempo piece will flow over—no pun intended—over into the flow and sonority areas as well.
Listening back to yourself as the other best thing you can do for your vocal mechanic so that you can start to identify—And this is not a situation of beating yourself up. This is listening to yourself to say, “Okay, what can I add?” Or “What can I enhance?” Or “How can I create my next level?” That's the conversation that we're in. This is only a conversation between better and best, I never want to hear you beating yourself up for the voice that you have.
And by the way, we have put together a Vocal Leadership Workout for everybody that you can download. And it's got tons of exercises in it, and it also has links to some articles that I wrote for Forbes magazine, and some other places on different aspects of vocal leadership. You can download that we'll put the link in the in the chat as well at TwinFlamesStudios.com/vid19. And that's… I really, really love this vocal workout, I have all my clients do it to get them going. Because we don't think about our voice as the machine that it is, as the muscle that it is. And the neck muscles and the throat muscles around the voice are very complicated. There's a lot of people… You think about it, you have basically a popsicle stick holding up a bowling ball. That's the musculature of your neck. And it's all these crisscrossing tiny little muscles. And if you go to massage your neck or your throat, you can start to feel it like “Holy crap! That's like piano wire in there! That is really, really tight.”
So, allowing yourself… give yourself some throat massage is really, really helpful. We'll talk about that, along with some other techniques a little bit later when we get to talking about managing your inside voice, which we're about to switch to right now.
So, all of that being said about the mechanics of your voice. You know what’s really important? The inside part. Yes, it's important to have all these factors and to practice to manage the articulation. There's lots and lots of different things when we work with podcast hosts, or we work with authors who want to narrate their own audiobooks, there are a lot of mechanics that we go through for phrasing, and asking certain questions, and speeding up, and slowing down, and different listening techniques. All of that is wonderful and valuable. But if I gave you nothing else today, it would be to talk with you about who you are being when you are being a leader, and it coming through your voice that way. So this is all about your inside voice.
It's who you are, and who you are being far more than what you're saying that's going to make the biggest impact on who you're communicating with. We are wired as human beings for empathy. 100%. All the time. We are herd animals, we are social animals, so to speak. And we have these wonderful things called mirror neurons. Mirror neurons allow us to kind of see and understand or feel and understand what somebody else might be feeling. And mirror neurons and empathy kind of cuts both ways. Those mirror neurons that make us able to identify and feel so strongly when we're watching a movie, and the dog dies, or your favorite character falls in love. We feel those feelings even though those events aren't real. That's how powerful those neurons are. And that same biology is what people are reacting to when you're communicating with them, even with non-visual communication. So, for example, have you ever been on the phone, and all of a sudden your stomach drops, because you sense that something has changed without the other person saying anything. Or if you're a parent, your kids are playing in the next room, and suddenly the sound changes, and without even knowing why you find yourself going into check on. And then there's music. Our emotional state can change in an instant, just for those first couple of bars of our favorite songs. So, here's the thing.
You have that same impact on everyone around you. Every single day, we impact those around us whether we're conscious of it or not. And the opportunity for each and every one of us is—Do you want to make a conscious impact or an unconscious impact simply through how you're being? So, have you ever thought to yourself who are you being when you're being the best version of yourself? Who you being when you're being the best version of yourself think about that for a moment. And I'd even invite you now to close your eyes and see where you can feel—see what I said, “See where you can feel?” it's kind of a dichotomy there. But think about it just close your eyes go inside. Where do you feel those emotions in your body when you think about when you feel the best? Think about a scenario about when you have felt the best, maybe a peak experience is, or working with your clients, or, you know, you had a really great experience speaking, or running a meeting, or you had another accomplishment. Where do you feel those emotions in your body? And how would you identify them? A couple of places you can think maybe to check in are your chest, your throat, maybe you have this level of calm alertness. I hear that a lot from clients of level of calm alertness, like you're ready, but your calm. It's a really cool way to be.
You see, we're never taught to practice our emotional states, like we're taught to read, or throw baseball, or create a presentation. But it is a skill, like any other. Intentionally bringing up an emotional state and putting it on—like putting on a new jacket—is something that we as human beings have the absolute ability to do. And it's something that is a very worthwhile practice, because it's not so much like you have to control your emotions, but it's a conscious shifting and a conscious choosing of who we are going to be. And as a leader, this is incredibly important as an internal skill. So, let me break this down into a more practical state.
One of the ways that we train authors who want to narrate their own audiobooks, and our podcast hosts, and our vocal leadership clients to practice these different emotional states, one way we do that is to take a passage from a book—or if we're working with an author to passage from their own book—and read it in different emotional states. You know, and I'm going to give you an example right now. I've got some classic quotes queued up in front of me here. So, this is the first line from The Great Gatsby. So, I'm going to read it normally. And then we're going to try on some different attitudes or different emotional states with it. And you can try this on your own with—open a book and just try doing it in different ways. And the trick is to say, “Okay, as I'm reading it in these different attitudes, how does that feel in my body? Where do I notice it?”so you can bring it up really consciously?
So, here's the first line read straight. “In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.” Okay, let's pick a let's pick an emotional state—let's do sad and regretful. “In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.” Or if we can try angry. “In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.” Right? Maybe we can try excited. So I'm really excited to share, okay. “In my younger and more vulnerable years, my father gave me some advice that I've been turning over in my mind ever since.”
Okay? So those are some different emotional attitudes. And when you're practicing this, I invite you to practice it in a big way, in an overplayed way, in an over dramatic way, so you can really emphasize. And then every time you do a different emotion and try on a different emotion, close your eyes after you do it and see where you can feel it in your body, see where it raises or lowers your energy. And just start to get a little practice doing this. Because your emotional states are something that you many, many times can choose. And this is also very helpful when you are managing people because as leaders, we tend to be “emotional Velcro”—things stick to us, and we can help it because we're empathic and we care. So, you might start out your day feeling really great, and then help people through a whole series of problems, and then by noon, as you're taking a break, you make time to take a pause and go “Okay, is anything sticking to me that might be somebody else's?” Taking a few deep breaths and blowing it out. So, when you kind of clear yourself, there's some different ways that you can kind of clear yourself throughout the day. And clearing yourself throughout the day is super important because of this “emotional Velcro” state that we go into. And because we can shift emotional states, as quickly as we want to. We tend to be—if particularly if you're a coach, if you're speaker, if you are a conscious leader, and you're out there working with people, you've probably been on a ride with people through this empathic state that you have every day. And so, it's important in between times, to take care of your vocal leadership. To pause and see what your internal voice is telling you—has something anybody said to you kicked up an old belief maybe of something that, you know, kind of mirrored off of a client or a colleague, that you need to take a moment to shift? Or maybe someone had something really dreadful happened to them, and even though you didn't totally take it on, there's a little bit of something you need to process.
There's a couple of different vocal techniques you can do to release some of that stress physically, that then translates again to your nervous system and help you bring back that balance or that homeostasis, that internal / external voice congruency that we're looking for. And one of those is something that I mentioned a little while ago, which is throat massage. The throat is a very vulnerable area for most of us. It's not something we allow people to have access to, you know, you touch people on the shoulder, you touch people on the arm, you might even touch people on the knee, give them a hug, but somebody touches your throat? This is a very vulnerable space. So, giving yourself a few minutes to give yourself a little bit of a rub, or slide your fingers particularly up in this area on the bottom of the jaw. Thumb presses—thumb presses down the side. There's a massive muscle that goes from the bottom of your ear all the way down to the throat called the Sternocleidomastoid—say that five times fast. That's a big muscle that also is related to TMJ. So, if you have any jaw issues, sometimes massaging and giving some attention to that big muscle will be a relief for you. So that's one thing you can do to relieve some stress in that area. The second one, I also alluded to, and that is blowing it out. But I also like to refer to it in honor of my grandmother as “The Italian Grandmother Sigh.” And so, this is again, something that helps activate the relaxation part of our nervous system, and it's simply taking some large deep breaths and allowing a sound to come out on the end. So just “Aaaaaaahhhh.”
And I remember my great grandmother sitting in crocheting in the afternoon, and every so often, she would just let out this deep sigh. And I realized years later that that was her way of just releasing tension. She wasn't trying to get attention, she wasn't being dramatic, anything like that it was her body just even unconsciously, just releasing some of the tension that she was going through. So that's another very simple, very, very easy technique that I would recommend.
So, in particular, before you go into meetings, check in with yourself and see what you might need. It's very, very easy for us to get caught up in the doing. But it's the being that allows us to stay on track and go with the flow and be the biggest help of those other people that we interact with and that we lead.
One of the questions I get asked by leaders a lot, is “How much should I share personally with my team, how open or vulnerable is good to be?” Now this question came up long before we were dealing with the global situation we're dealing with now.
So, let's go back to our example of being in an online meeting or a conference call. And so, let's say you've been conscious of your way of being and you're bringing a good version of yourself to your phone call. You are ready to listen to people, your empathy is turned on high, you feel good, you’re breathing, your tempo and articulation are natural and flowing for you, and you're kind of embodying this calm in the storm for your team.
Now as you start your meeting, what many leaders are reluctant to do, but is extremely important to do particularly in times of uncertainty and difficulty is—it's important to acknowledge any elephants in the room. These concerns or issues that your team might be dealing with, but maybe they're reluctant to bring up. So, you as a leader holding a space for what we call clearing is going to help your team be fully present and deal with the task at hand and focused. So, regardless of the way you have this clearing—and there are several ways to approach clearing, I think there are going to be a little outside what we have time for today. But the point is that your role is to model what we would refer to in storytelling as telling the story from the scar, not the wound. Telling the story from the scar, not the wound. So, here's how that looks or sounds. This is where you acknowledge what you may be feeling or going through that's impacting you. But keeping in the clear state of being that you're holding from the team.
So, for example, you might share at a time like this “No, overall, we're doing pretty well, I have to admit, something that's on my mind is my elderly parents live far away, and my mom has some issues with her lungs. So, I have to admit this is causing some stress. And I'm grateful to be able to be in contact with them. And I know they're taken care of, but it's something on my mind. So, I'm just saying in this clearing that even though that's on my mind, I'm going to set that aside, so I can be fully present with all of you.”So that's telling the story from the scar.
If you were to tell the story from the wound, and you've probably heard this in meetings, it might sound something like, “I'm really worried about my mom, I don't know what I'm going to do. This whole thing has gotten me so stressed out, and Oh God, guys, I'm so sorry. But I, just you know, I'm having trouble focusing. And I know this is really hard for everybody.” That's what telling the story from the wound sounds like and it creates a totally different energetic scenario in a meeting. It's definitely something that's going to impact your team. They're going to immediately feel that, and then they're going to be reacting doubly, because not only are they then worried for you. They are—instead of an area being compassionate, or empathetic with you, which is you would they would hear and react to the first way—now they're going to be worried. And they're going to have their own worries on top of it. And then they're worried that you're going to freak out and then they have to carry the burden. And then it's going to spiral.
So, telling the story from the scar, not the wound is the primary cardinal rule, I want you to remember, when you're thinking about how to deal with being the leader in conversations that are challenging, times of high stress, high uncertainty. You are there holding the space. And that's why it's important, you know, not to go from meeting to meeting as much as possible but to leave a little bit of space in between even if it's two or three minutes. To regroup, check in on your way of breathing and being and get your nervous system in homeostasis before you walk in, with that your voice intact, with your being intact at the same time. So, modeling this leadership behavior is super powerful for any team to keep people focused, clear, and also feeling connected to each other and to you.
So, I am known in the circles that know me as a bit of a fire hose on this topic and whatnot and give a lot of information and a lot of topics. And I do just want to remind you that a bunch of this, and these tips are written down in the Vocal Leadership Workout I mentioned at TwinFlamesStudios.com/vid19.
I want to pause for a minute before I lay on any more, and just see about questions, and opening up the floor for comments, and things like that. So, let's take a look here. Oh, this is very cool. We got Canada, Melbourne, Australia. Oh, good to know Australians very commonly use up talk. I yeah, I have my I have several Australian colleagues and I haven't heard of them. So, I have been curious about that.
It's pretty, pretty common in the media in particular. So, when you're watching the news—
Really?—
We talk, and we talk, and we talk, and when we go up at the end, and everything's great.
Very common in Canada as well, as well as the Midwest of the US. But really, it's a human thing. Yeah, it's very much a human thing. So, I'm very curious in all of the info I just threw at you guys, any kind of questions you might have, or if you'd like me to go deeper or clarify on any particular topics. And while you guys are typing, I'm going to go ahead and put that link into the chat.
If you've got any tips, or if I can check out your website, because I find it takes me a while to get my voice warmed up in the morning.
Absolutely, absolutely.
And is there things on there that I can—even now like I'm talking to you, I'm like “I could do with some more cup of another cup of tea or some honey or—“
Definitely. Yeah, those are those are all good things. Yeah, there's a bunch of things in there.
One of the things we can definitely use gargling with warm salt water is really great for breaking up mucus, particularly, excuse me in the morning. Another thing we always tell folks, if you're going to be doing a lot of speaking, of course, stay away from dairy, citrus, and if you can stand it coffee—I usually ignore that last one. And so those all are things that tighten the voice. Yeah, any kind of really heavy meals. Anything that's going to kick up your stomach acid—if you tend to be sensitive and all of that—may impact the quality of your voice or the stamina of your voice. If you have stomach acid coming up, it's going to erode your—it's going to make things more tired.
Sleep is another big one. You can usually tell if somebody's tired by the quality of their voice. Their energy is going to be a little off, they're going to be a little slower, they may start to “uhm” and “ahh” again. So, sleep as much as possible is really a good thing to take note of. And that throat massage I mentioned before, is important.
I'm a big fan, I drink a lot of tea. So, I'm usually get some sort of tea, yeah, ginger, tea, anything herbal tends to be good for the voice to kind of keep things going. Some people have some issues—and sometimes it's just the day—with mouth smacking noises or that kind of mouth click sounds, which is super annoying. And so, if you know that you are somebody who has a tendency to do that, a trick from the voice acting world is to have a bite of an apple, or particularly a green apple. And there's something about the pectin and the acid in the apple that helps to alleviate that mouth smacking noises. Many times, if you go into a professional recording studio, you'll see a bowl of apples on a table. And most people don't know why that is. But it helps to alleviate that. Chapstick is also helpful to have for that. But sometimes water doesn't do it. It's another thing you got going on. That also does point to dehydration though. If you get a lot of mouth smacking noises, chances are you have some dehydration. Speaking of which…
I think it's such a fascinating area, like you said, your comment around, we've got something quite thin holding up a whole bowling ball. And I never thought about it like that. But if anyone's got any questions really encourage you to put them in the chat. Tina, I think I've become more aware of my voice, the more I speak. And particularly having sat on this conference now for what eight days I can feel my throat—
That’s a big job—
Getting a more of a workout than it would normally do. So, thank you so much for sharing your insights. I've already opened your link that you popped in the chat. So, I'll be downloading some of the cool leadership stuff too. So yeah, it's, it does make a difference. And even just listening to you reading that same sentence with different emotions is actually… Yeah, actually, what do I want to come out?
What do you want? What do you want to come out?
Yeah. So, we're working with authors who want to narrate their own books, we'll practice with them, like “What's the way of being that they want to come across as?” And they're kind of amazed when they listen back to themselves, how their voices, how it lands with the listener. Yeah, and sometimes it's not what you expect, sometimes, a more gentle approach is not the best thing. Really just depends on what you're looking to convey. Sometimes a much… You can go way bigger than you thought you could. And that's good news for people like me with, you've always been trying to like not, you know, overwhelm people with our big personalities and all that.
When you're working with audio, or you're working with a medium when you're not in person, many times you can go bigger than you can when you are adding that physical element to it. Not on a stage—stage, you can go really big as you get a big room and all of that. But, you know, if you, I'm sure you've been in networking events where somebody is just like, “Hi!!!”, you know? And they're just really big, and in your face, and all of that. It's “ahh!” you know, personal space. But online, we have a lot more room for people to get in our face, because they're not really there. There's a bit of separation, kind of an energetic level, and also, in our personal space. We don't have any kind of automatic—necessarily—any automatic reactions to someone coming that close to us physically. And again, that's very cultural. Some cultures have very, very close physical space, some it's way further out. So, the online formats do make it more flexible in that particular sense.
But we're finding a lot of teams—and particularly in corporate—are even doing just audio. And there's a lot of advantages to doing just audio meetings. One is it changes the way that you listen. You don't get triggered by people's facial expressions, you really just have to listen to what they're saying and how they're being. The second thing is, is you're not worried about, like, you and I are on camera right now, and you know, we're a little bit crow-like. Sometimes we're like, you know, checking our stuff. You know, am I in the right position? How’s my chin, you know? All of that kind of stuff. So, it helps to relax the people in the meeting. I was just coaching someone who runs a PR firm for executives on running online meetings, and taking their live meetings on to Zoom and audio format. And one of the things that we talked about extensively was, video / no video, and we decided on no video, and she got a lot of feedback afterwards about how comfortable that made it for people to not have to worry about their background, or if they've done their hair, or if their kids were around or you know, especially in the circumstances we're in right now. And that really allowed them to just be present with the content. And they were, you know, she was interviewing Fortune 100 CEO, you know, and normally you do want to like, look your best and all of that to be in something like that. And they could just like, you know, be in their jammies if they really wanted to, and still have this professional conversation.
So, I really think that audio-only formats for online meetings is highly underrated. I work with the majority of my clients—and always have coaching clients, consulting clients, podcasting, audiobooks, vocal leadership—primarily via audio only, so that you learn and you actually train that listening, because there's so much that you can pick up. And it gets quite fascinating once you practice it for a while and you're not relying on the visual cues anymore, what you can hear, and then start to trust your intuition and ask questions of people—
Yeah—
To get that.
I've been wearing my air pods for every session for the same reason because it blocks out all of the atmospheric noise. We have some pretty chatty parrots in our yard, and cats like to meow, and all of that sort of thing that we don't have in an office either.
So, Tina, thank you so much, sending so much love, and thanks from Melbourne. If you're ever in Australia, please let me know. And next time I'm in the States—
Tina Dietz
I will pick you up on that.
Perfect. Thank you so much—
Thank you so much, Julia. Thanks everyone.
Thank you.
Interested in learning more about how you can strength
Chris KrimitsosI've known Tina for quite some time—she actually was very active in our local group and has helped quite a few of us. And she's gotten into the B2B niche. So, Tina, if you'd like if you want to just share your screen, and then we'll open it up to Q&A.
Tina DietzYeah! Sounds good.
So, the floor is yours.
Why thank you.
Hi, everybody! Thanks for joining us here today. I'm excited to talk with you. And I'm not much of a PowerPoint fan, but I'm gonna do my best here.
What I'm really excited about, though, is just having an opportunity to talk with you all, and have some Q&A afterwards, because this is an area—Executive and Corporate Podcasting—that I got into… Well, I started talking about it about five years ago now because I was in podcasting, and looking at podcasting trends, and where I saw it was going, I knew it was going to take a while for larger organizations to get into podcasting.
But, like with any trend, it was almost inevitable that it was going to happen.
So, let me back up and share a little bit more. It's really about how to give a nameless, faceless corporation human personality. And this is about half my more executive team. And what we do at Twin Flames Studios is we amplify the messages of trusted brands of leaders, sometimes really well-established entrepreneurs. And we do that in three ways:
Through full-service podcasting, getting things going, very high touch, kind of white glove, concierge service, podcasting, and ongoing production
I, one-on-one, work with executives and CEOs on vocal leadership—which I'll touch on a little bit later when we talk about podcast guesting
And we also do nonfiction audiobooks. Full production, publishing and distribution.
So everything audio, to get your voice out to millions of people.
And I've been building businesses for more than 20 years. I started my career as a therapist, but I grew up as an entrepreneur. And I never met a microphone I didn't like, I say all the time. So, eventually what happened is, after building businesses in about 20 different industries in eight different countries over the course of years as a consultant and a coach, I felt this pull towards doing more with podcasting, doing more with audio, that was where my heart was.
And I had this epiphany that if I could work with enough leaders, who are doing enough amazing things in the world with low hanging fruit like podcasting, and audiobook—some of the lowest hanging fruit for people to start to change their lives—then there was a good chance, you know, what was important to me, I can make a bigger impact in the world, leave the world a better place than I found it.
So that's why we do what we do. We have a global team. We've got folks overseas, we get folks here in the US and Canada, Portugal, Scotland, and I adore my team. So, I love to show them off whenever I can.
So Corporate Podcasting trends—how and why are companies using podcasting.
And like I said, most companies are—well, they're familiar with what podcasting is. But getting it into their own systems is a little different. Because how corporations handle their marketing is quite different than how entrepreneurs handle their marketing. And this was actually a learning curve for me, being a very pure entrepreneur. With all the businesses I've owned, I actually don't come from a corporate background at all. It was my ability to be flexible, and for my company to be flexible, that has really made this work in the corporate and in the B2B space.
So, what we found is that companies are using podcasting for a number different reasons. We're going to break it down, but they're primarily using it in three different ways and wanting to use it in three different ways.
So External Podcasting, which is the type of podcasting, of course, we're all the most familiar with, out into the universe available to everybody. Internal Podcasting, which we'll go into a little bit more, that is when a podcast is only available to the people inside of a company. And Podcast Guesting.
Let's break down these three—and I'm going to move through these slides as quickly as possible so we can get to the juicy meat of the matter talking about what you're most interested in and how it can serve you best.
External Podcasting, of course, they're generating brand awareness. If you look at the research on sticky branding or sticky advertising—it means when it's not directly an ad necessarily, or maybe it's something more narrative of a mention or it's a brand that gets featured in a podcast—that really is the stickiness that sticks to people. And so, they find that with podcast advertising or podcast branding, people who listen to podcasts are about 70% more likely to do business with a brand mentioned on a podcast or a brand offering a podcast. So, very important.
Attracting new clients and customers is what most of us are trying to do in podcast and podcasting on the business side of things. So, in this case, we're not talking about narrative podcasting, we're not talking about NPR style, business podcasting. That is a trend and I think what some of the people who do it best are “Pacific Content” out in Vancouver—they run Charles Schwab's external podcast, they run Facebook's external podcast; I had the pleasure of interviewing one of their executives recently, and I have tremendous respect for what they do. But every one of those episodes is tens of thousands of dollars in production, because it is a full-time, massive deal.
So, most of the podcasting we're seeing externally, with corporate, with B2B, is not quite in that range. We can—we do see that sometimes in enterprise level companies, like Facebook, like Charles Schwab, some other large, large corporations. But companies that are in, say, the three to $35 million range—some of them maybe even considered, you know, small to mid-sized business, rather than super large corporations—they're really looking to expand their presence in a way that allows them to keep their humanity. You know, remember a lot of these are well established businesses, they're used to doing their marketing and their networking, face-to-face or as we say, belly-to-belly. And so podcasting is very appealing to these companies, particularly at this time as they're having to pivot and still wanting to keep the relationships, in their marketing, in their networking, and particularly creating relationships with industry influencers to widen their professional network.
Very rarely do we ever find that if you reach out to somebody and ask them to be on your show, or any of our companies, they reach out to an influencer in their industry—lots in finance, in particular that we work with—that somebody turns them down. It's basically “Hey, would you come and have a really friendly conversation with me for half an hour about things you're most interested in and passionate about?” Not a hard sell. So, our clients get really thrilled at having this media platform to share, that allows it to open doors for them.
And of course, that leads to creating collaboration. My favorite, favorite value out of B2B and Corporate Podcasting is what happens after the interview. Yes, there are audience members; yes, you have downloads; yes, we have, you know, growth. And we're generally not looking at podcasts that are necessarily in the thousands of downloads per episode, because we're looking at very niche podcasts. And we are also looking at the collaboration and the relationships that happen with the guests—between the guests and the host between, the guests and the company—as these podcasts come along. It does improve SEO to the websites. SEO is one of those things that seems like more magic than anything else these days. A lot of the things we all knew to do years ago with meta tags, and keywords, and all this other stuff… It's really kind of gone away and really gone the way of organic.
So, corporations are using the podcast to generate long form content that can then be repurposed into transcript-based articles on their website—which are fantastic for SEO, particularly paired with a few other important pieces. So that's External Podcasting—the main reasons and why—we're seeing for External Podcasting.
Internal Podcasting is another animal, and this is a rising area. It's just starting to come forward and flourish a little bit, particularly in enterprise-sized companies. So, this has more to do with development and reinforcement of company culture. Culture development is key to things, like you know, making sure that things actually get done. Efficiency, particularly now that everybody is working from home, or so many people are working from home; it's how we can create a little bit more glue, and have people not feel quite as alone or lonely.
And it also really helps to prevent things like screen fatigue: if you can listen with your earbuds while you're doing the dishes, or taking your dog for a walk, you don't have to be staring at a screen like you are all day for regular work. And screen fatigue is a real thing—it has shown to decrease productivity, it increases a certain number of health risks in a big population. And corporations are always looking at corporate wellness inside of their corporate company culture. So, this is actually more to it than meets the eye when we think about culture.
It's also great, of course, for dissemination of important information. We're moving fast. There's a lot of town hall meetings that happen inside of companies, or they're rolling out new products, or particularly with some of the companies we work with in the pharmaceutical/healthcare side of things, everything's changing right now with Coronavirus, and people need to be kept in the know. Podcasting internally is a way to disseminate that information in a more intimate way than a newsletter. And also in a more human way, than they’re used to, you know, providing this, you know, very kind of cold, documented information. We're still seeing people doing everything written, but adding on the voice, adding on the relationship, and the warmth.
Also, to educate and inform teams, particularly sales teams as they're rolling out new products, features of those products, how to sell them, who to sell them to—issues that might be coming up talking about your sales numbers. A lot more interesting to celebrate your wins, by meeting your sales goals over a podcast and to hear somebody announcing your name—it's like “Hey, a big shout out to John Smith! And, you know, Amelia, for you know, blowing away the sales numbers this month, you know, make sure when you see them in the hallway today, you know, give them a shout out, send them an email.” It's great to hear that. That celebration, acknowledgement of achievements is a really, really big one—who doesn't love to hear their name being mentioned by leadership, right, or being interviewed?
And the sharing of stories and inspiration, particularly Leadership Development. Leadership Development is the biggest area we're seeing for internal podcasting, and in internal employee resource groups. And I'll talk about a specific example in a minute about that.
So, I wanted to dive in and talk about a couple of specific instances where we can see how Corporate Podcasting is being used, you know, directly. And so, we have been working with the folks at Tri-Merit. They're a corporation outside of Chicago, and they have a very, very niche business. They had no marketing team up until about a year ago, and their marketing team actually contacted us to help with the podcast. They find R&D tax credits for technology companies. Can you hear the crickets, thinking about how you would create podcast content about this?
But what they do mostly, is they have relationships with CPA firms. That's where they generate most of their business. And they are passionate about the world of public accounting. Again, not something I would ever find myself naturally drawn to be passionate about, but these guys are thrilled, and finding the stories in the public accounting world that are unique, that are interesting—they're getting them out there. And they're using this as a beautiful networking tool. You have never seen a more excited group of folks talking about public accounting than these guys. And they do fantastic work in the world. So, this podcast for them has been the hub of their content marketing, allowing them to then create social media, allowing them to then follow up with their guests afterwards, and generate collaborative opportunities, generate other guest speaking opportunities. All kinds of networking happens when the host or their team follows up with these guests after the fact.
Now let's talk a little bit about Internal Podcasting. I have to talk about the Podcast Inc. conference, which is going to be online this fall. And I don't know if any of you know Jennifer Crawford. Jennifer Crawford is the founder of DC PodFest. And you know, Jennifer and I have known Chris for years, and know the folks from She Podcasts for years. And there's this wonderful collaboration and cross promotion that happens in the background with all of these podcasts’ conferences, which I love. And Jennifer saw a need in the industry to have a one-day conference specifically in this area, because it really wasn't being addressed a whole lot of places. It's very, very niche.
And so, what we did when we moved the conference from May to November, is—I went out and I said, “Jennifer, why don't we do a limited series podcast on Internal Corporate Podcasting and use this as a lead up?” So, this just came out about two weeks ago. And we're just ramping up the promotion of the conference. But if you want to look up PodcastInc.co/podcast, you can find this and listen to these episodes from different aspects of the Corporate Podcasting world specifically talking about Internal Podcasting, but also Corporate External Podcasting sneaks in there as well.
So then we talk about things like security and the use of a podcast intranet. One of the biggest issues for Corporate Podcasting is security. And so, platforms like PodBean, Blubrry, and Libsyn all have internal podcasting capability, and you have to find out what works for you. What we're finding is that these corporations want to use their already existing intranet to disseminate podcast information. And that's actually what we're doing with the folks at Novo Nordisk right now developing an internal podcast with them, for their women in leadership employee resource group. And what's cool about that is, as we're getting further into the process, the folks from the women in leadership resource group are reaching out to the other employee resource groups to see about developing a collaboration so that the podcast can live over time.
It's a very different development art—for those of you who work with podcast show development—then an external podcast. It's a much slower process, for the most part, and also there's a lot of little baby steps. So, what we've learned in this process, in the back end, is just to let things play out and have some patience. But people are really, really coachable, really, really interested in learning, and very excited about making their workplace better. So it's very, very cool.
One of the ways we're using podcasts a lot in corporate, both Internal and I'll also reference back to External, is Limited Series like this podcasting. Podcasting doesn't have to go on forever: For companies that feel like it's a high risk to commit to a full year or an ongoing podcast, we work with them on a limited series. A to 10 to 12 episodes to start, and we say “You know what? If this doesn't work out for you, if you don't feel like you want to keep going, then you've got a really great marketing asset and a series that you can use.” So, we always bring up seasons, we always bring up limited series podcast, and we find that most of the time when they get into the groove, they do want to keep going.
We also see in Internal Podcasting, the use of External Podcasts for internal purposes. So, you can repurpose the material you're sending out to folks, and make sure that your team, you know, is actually getting that information. And we're starting to develop databases of podcast information for say a group of financial advisors to then be able to keyword-in and then send out articles, and podcast episodes, specifically to their clients and really use the podcast as a resource.
Podcast Guesting—we're just going to check on this real quick. This is some of the companies that I've worked with, some of their executives, in one capacity or another around their vocal leadership and/or Podcast Guesting. And so, Podcast Guesting, we're finding a lot of usage for executives who are looking to set themselves apart, to have third party credibility, to develop their personal brand, and to do personal leadership PR, which is different than company PR. I work with a wonderful company out of Manhattan, and they help leaders get their leadership profile amplified. And we do a lot of work with their folks around getting them prepared to be on a podcast knowing that they can have this laid-back intimate, conversational relationship. They're not teaching, they're not reporting. They're in a relationship with the host. And we work with them heavily on their storytelling, so that they're not boring guests. And they come across as the people they really are, which is warm and professional, and really out to make a difference in the world. And that conversational interview style and format makes this possible. So, Podcast Guesting we're seeing a lot of rise in the director and above level of executives in corporations.
Okay! 20 minutes.
So all right, and I wanted to leave 10 minutes for Q&A, and seeing if there's any other examples we want to talk about if we want. You guys can go to TwinFlamesStudios.com/PodFest—I've got a bunch of materials for you there. I'm not a funnel girl. Don't sell things via email. But I do have our Vocal Leadership Workout, our package on How To Be a Guest and more podcasts, and some additional articles on Corporate Podcasting that we will just send you in an email if you go to that particular link.
That's it.
Awesome, Tina. So I’ll put it back to speaker view, if you could just unshare for a second there.
You’ve got it.
Alright, so we have a couple questions. When it comes to Internal Podcasting within a corporate culture, how do you know what to charge? Is it per minute, or? Because you're dealing with very big companies—like how do you figure out what to charge?
Yeah, so with these large companies, we're generally not dealing with the umbrella of the company; we're dealing with a small section of a company. So, these Employee Resource Groups have their own budget. So, the first thing is to find out what are their budgets to work with. They don't have tremendously large budgets, and if you can work with them—I usually work with them on a consulting basis and then go from there. Because many times they have internal resources even to do the editing and things like that. They need to know how to get things going.
So, an internal podcast, is that open on an Apple feed? Or is it, you know what I mean, so it's internally?
Yeah, so these are being—
How do you set them up? I'm just curious.
Well, it's actually, again, because these are larger companies, they want to handle the tech themselves. So, it's really a matter of teaching them, showing them how to create the content, how to manage the workflow. These are a lot of things we do, you know? Conceptually, how do you internally market a podcast? And then it requires interfacing with multiple departments to actually find, you know, work with them to get the show loaded up onto their intranet. Like I said, there are the—
That’s right, they all have Internet and MI Departments, computer guys, you know, people.
Yeah, yeah. So, it's a different animal, you're not going up on a hosting platform, unless they do want to use Blubrry or PodBean, or Libsyn—are the big three right now that have Internal Corporate Podcasting platforms. We're gonna see that happen more in mid-sized companies that don't quite have intranets, but still want to have control and security.
So then you're seeing that… I found it interesting you're seeing a lot of C-Level executives wanting to grow their brand by going out on other podcasts—you're seeing that?
Yeah, there's an interesting point in an executive’s career—you're rising up in these in these large industries, you know, they've distinguished themselves and they've kind of hit a certain level and to go from say, what we call a Director Level executive, into a C-Level executive really requires distinguishing oneself with Thought Leadership in some way.
And so, Podcast Guesting is a way to distinguish oneself on Thought Leadership, that is outside the company. You know, there's an old saying that says, you know, “it's hard to become a hero in your own hometown.” So, if people know you really well, they think they know you. Well, if you're out there, and all of a sudden, you're on a podcast or a bunch of podcasts as a guest, that gives you a third-party credibility in your leadership and your development of your Thought Leadership. This is usually paired with a whole package of executive PR, of articles, or press releases, or other types of materials, that kind of all go together to help develop somebody's leadership. Getting on Boards of Directors is another really big thing. And when boards go out and research potential candidates, one of the things they look for is have they done media, and most of these folks haven't done any media because most of the media that's taught at a corporate level is high pressure crisis media.
You’re right, “how to protect yourself when everything hits the fan.” That's true. There's no… This is a… I have to tell you… This is… The more you talk, it's like the beginning of a new era, because you're right, the C-Level executives are only trained, “Don't talk to media, unless you talk to your PR department before you go out there.” Now, they're being proactive, and they're interfacing with podcasts. And I guess they also have to build their personal brand, because who knows how long they'll be an executive with that company till the next one. And, you know, there's—
Yeah, there's a fair amount of mobility and talent even, in these times, you know, top talent is something that companies are always looking to retain. It's a big issue. And we find that podcasting is a way to really bring out their voice not so much in a technical way. Working with the executives on their storytelling is one of my absolute favorite things, to have them go from this kind of teaching reporting style, that they're used to doing in meetings and things like that, and kind of teasing out the humanity. And the really cool thing is that once they learn that, now they're bringing it back to their teams and having different conversations with their teams. And that's what we go deeper into Vocal Leadership training.
So, this is really a cutting edge field of consulting, if I hear you correctly, like a media training, which they always have, but on the podcasting side, and you're at the forefront of it.
Yeah, I'd like to think so.
No, you are I mean, it's only going to grow as we move forward. What trends are you seeing with corporations and B2B type stuff? So, there's Internal Podcasting going on, you're doing external facing… Any other trends that you see? Obviously, they're trying to build their PR cred by going on other podcasts shows—
Yeah, what we're seeing a lot is that the internal marketing teams in these companies really, really want to do podcasting. I spoke at a conference a little over a year ago in Scottsdale, big B2B conference, had a packed room of 100 people speaking at a panel, and two thirds of the people in the room raised their hand when they said, “Are you trying to start a podcast in your company?” And they were running into issues with time, they were running issues with knowledge, they were running issues with budget.So coming in and being able to stay the course—these are, of course, much longer relationship building sales cycles than, most entrepreneurs, generally care to go with. I have people ask me all the time, “So can you introduce me to your people at GE so I can be a corporate, you know, trainer there?” And I'm like, “That's not how this works.” It's not the warm introduction cycle that we're used to as entrepreneurs to build our network. So, there's a lot, there's a fair amount more to it than that. It's a fascinating world, but it's definitely growing.
Yeah, a few years ago, I had, I was approached by a big $800 million, like trust, and I just remember, for them to make a decision was like 10 different committee meetings, and they still hadn't decided and they said, “Oh, this is too cutting edge.” I'm like, “This is actually not”—this was just a couple years ago—and I’m like, “It's not cutting edge. And you guys have money by the time you implement it,” you know, but it's just amazing to see how they make decisions. And you’re right. It's not the entrepreneurial world.
No, they’re much more risk-averse.
So yeah, when you do get the contract, because there's a huge lead cycle in this kind of field. So, I'm excited for what you're doing.
Thank you.
Tina, your numbers—we started at like, 50, we ballooned to 70. We have 60-something people here is amazing. I just want to give a shout out to Ross Brand, Al Mega, Dr. Ellen, Rachel Hernandez, commenting, chatting.Anything that you see for artificial voice in corporate or is that going to take time? Like the [Alexa] skills, are you seeing anything there?
Any artificial voice—any truly artificial voice that it's not a human voice—we find a lot of resistance to and I also have a tremendous amount of resistance to it. Because to me, that is the polar opposite of what podcast gets used for. You know, when you and I worked together and I did a bunch of the interviews for The Messengers movie—if you haven't watched it, watch it—you know the thing that came up across all those interviews that we did was the word intimacy and podcast and creating intimacy. And so, an AI voice is the opposite of intimacy. And I don't think we're going to see mechanized or automated voices, takeover things anytime soon. Will we see things go into voice activation? Will we see more happening with Alexa? Yeah, I do think we'll see that. But there's a lot of privacy concerns, particularly in corporations. So that's the last place we're gonna see that; we're gonna see that in the consumer market way way sooner.
Oh, well, Tina, people can reach out to you through the app, connect with you. Thank you for taking the time out. Just tell us your website one last time.
Awesome. Tina, thank you so much. You always knock it out of the park. You're a pro.
Thanks everyone for joining us.
I know you got a lot on your agenda. So, thank you for being part of this and supporting what we do. And also thank you for—I forgot but you did… Tina did the initial interviews, probably half of the movie. The Messengers came out with interviews Tina did while we were running the second ever Pod Fest. And if you haven't seen The Messengers: A Podcast Documentary—I'm gonna have Andrew upload it to the conference so people could see it. But thank you for mentioning that, Tina. Thank you for doing that for us.
It’s a great project. One of my favorite things.
It was awesome. Thank you.
Take care.
Goodbye now.
Interested in learning more about Internal Podcasting, External Podcasting, and Podcast Guesting?
