If you're like most thought leaders, you've spent time developing a course or program that you were beyond excited to share with the world. It checked all the boxes:
It answered every question your ideal client might have.
It solved a frustration or pain point your ideal client shared with you.
It aligned with your brand's core mission and values.
And you were SURE it would sell out in minutes.
…but when you announced your shiny new program or product…instead of sales, you heard the sound of crickets. OUCH. We have ALL been there.
Now, part of owning a business is taking risks. And while you can't eliminate every chance of disappointment that comes with running your business, you can lessen the risk of selling a whopping zero programs or products with a very simple (yet often ignored) tactic: testing your messaging.
Instead of spending too much time thinking about creating a new offer or program…
Or spending months (or years) developing an entire suite of programs and offers…
…today, we are excited to share our tried-and-true method that will allow you to assess whether your idea is perceived as genuinely transformative to your audience – instead of just assuming that it will be.
Growing an aligned audience excited to learn from you requires cultivating a community eager to receive your wisdom, support, and guidance.
If you want to cultivate an aligned audience of humans who are excited about you and your business, you need to take a hard look at three key things:
Your niche
Your voice
The Invitation
Once you master those three things, you'll find that selling your programs and products becomes more straightforward and practically effortless.
Know Your Niche
It's not enough to assume that you're “niched down” – you've got to go deep here because surface-level “knowing” is no longer enough.
While you can narrow your niche in many ways, you want to focus on the ways that will result in them being able to say, “OH, THAT IS ME,” followed by, “I BELONG HERE.”
And, no, targeting people based on their Netflix obsession or their passion for crocheting isn't going to work. You'll waste precious time focusing on these things.
Instead, please focus on the actions they would be taking before working with you.
Use Your Voice
Please note that this does not refer to your volume–and this is where using your Content Personality® makes a massive difference in the energy of how your message is received.
The internet is a loud place – and that's before we even take a peek at social media.
When we talk about using your voice, we're talking about communicating your mission-driven message using your Content Personality® so that your narrowed niche can hear you, get excited, and get on board with your solutions, values, and more.
That is how aligned community growth happens!
Invite Them to Join Your Community
You may have already discovered this, but it's not enough to “post and pray,” hoping your aligned audience will find you as if by magic.
Instead of just hoping, be tactical with your messaging – invite your audience to share your vision for a changed world. This type of “leaning in” allows others to see you as human and amplifies the need to spread your message.
Suppose you're determined to create a lasting impact on your business and spread your mission. In that case, you'll need to become highly committed to being visible (using your Content Personality®), so your aligned audience can get to know you and cultivate a relationship with you.
Growing an aligned audience is possible, but it takes time, dedication, and courage!
When you share your mission and services with your audience in a way that is genuinely aligned with all the parts that make you UNIQUE, you'll earn their trust and create invaluable relationships (which will make offering your fantastic, ground-breaking, life-changing programs and products much easier).
The thing about growing an engaged, aligned audience is that everyone you're connected to absorbs and processes your messaging at their own pace.
This naturally means that some of your audience isn't ready to buy…yet. As a business owner, it's important to realize (and accept) that if someone doesn't invest with you today, that does not mean they won't be ready to invest with you later (maybe tomorrow or next week!).
Don't assume that someone not clicking the “buy” button means they don't want to work with you – they may need to grow your relationship first.
But wouldn't it be nice to know if, next time, introducing your brilliant idea makes sense for where the majority of your audience is right now?
(Yes, yes, it would.)
Take Action
If you're ready to make an impact and share your vision for change, take some time to review those three key things that can make or break your next offer.
Ask yourself:
Your Niche: Am I niched down enough? Is the audience I'm speaking to engaging and interacting with me?
Your Voice: Am I communicating effectively so that the people who read or listen to or watch my messaging understand my point of view, values, and mission?
The Invitation: Have you given the humans who follow your content time to get to know you and grow into a trusting relationship that will naturally lead to them investing in your program or product?
If you don't score perfectly across the board, that's normal (and expected). Review some of your more popular posts, videos, or emails and note how you highlighted your niche, used your voice, and invited your audience to take action.
If you don't have any posts that seem popular, take a broad overview of your messaging and identify areas where you need to improve for clarity and understanding. A great place to start is by learning your natural Content Personality®, and lucky for you, we've created a simple, 3-minute (seriously) quiz to help you understand precisely what your Content Personality® is and how to best utilize your natural talents in your messaging.
What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!
More About M. Shannon Hernandez
M. Shannon Hernandez is ALL ABOUT THAT JOY in life and biz. She is specifically known around the globe for The Content Personality® Wheel and is the Founder of Joyful Business Revolution™, a business growth strategy and consultancy company that works with coaches, consultants, and service-based business owners. Shannon and her team specialize in organic mission-driven marketing and creative campaigns that help their clients grow aligned audiences and deepen community relationships, so they grow their business for GOOD, resulting in more joy, more time-off, and more profits with purpose.
Did you know one of the most powerful ways you can connect with your clients is through podcasting? You can learn more about the benefits of podcasting, what questions you need to answer before you begin your podcast, and how Twin Flames Studios helps get your voice into more ears on my guest interview with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast.(Scaling Up Services Podcast with Bruce Eckfeldt, October 2021)
Tina spoke with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast to discuss how podcasts hone your brand, provide evergreen marketing content, and create deeper relationships.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why audio is one of the most intimate mediums for storytelling
The top questions to ask before you start your podcast
How podcasts can revitalize your marketing and expand your reach
Bruce Eckfeldt Are you a CEO looking to scale your company faster and easier? Check out Thrive Roundtable. Thrive combines a moderated peer group mastermind expert one on one coaching access to proven growth tools and a 24/7 support community. Created by Inc. award-winning CEO and certified Scaling Up Business coach, Bruce Eckfeldt, Thrive will help you grow your business more quickly and with less drama. For details on the program, visit eckfeldt.com/thrive.
Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. Our guest today isTina Dietz. She is the founder at Twin Flames Studios. We're going to talk to her about the work that she does with companies helping them with creating content, with promotion. This is a really kind of interesting topic. I think so many service companies based their marketing, based their sales and lead development, based on thought leadership and getting content out in the world. And there's so many different types of content and so many different ways you can do it. I really think they–obviously I love podcasting–but you know, podcasts, audiobooks, you know, spoken word kind of content, there's so many things you can do with it. There's so many things you can use to generate awareness, generate thought leadership, generate leads. I'm excited for this and excited to hear Tina’s story and how she got into this this world of audio content production and what she's been doing with service companies. So, with that, Tina, welcome to the program.
Tina DietzHey, Bruce, thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure having you on. So before we dive into what you're doing with Twin Flames right now and stuff, why don't we talk a little bit about you and get a sense of your background? Give us the story. What was your professional journey? And how did you get into what you're doing today?
Well, like most entrepreneurs, it's fairly stupid. It's just like, “Well, how the hell did this happen?” Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what we hear more than everything. If you had asked me, you know, when I was growing up, if, you know, in 25 years or whatever, you're going to own a company that produces audio content in the land of thought leadership for service-based companies. I'm sorry, what? What, what? It didn't even exist, right? You know, at the time?
So my upbringing was I had a younger sibling–that was a business. My parents owned a business that they started when I was three years old. It was my younger sibling, and I hated it. It was a wood burning stove and fireplace business. So real sexy, awesome. And basically, that was my constant companion growing up. So I was steeped like a tea bag in entrepreneurship. From a very young age, I started answering phones when I was four and going to trade shows when I was six, I do a whole talk will have to do another time maybe on how I found my purpose in life through the Ginsu knife demonstration at a local fair. So that’s a whole thing, that's the whole thing. And, you know, I never really thought I'd own a business, but I became a therapist–for a number of reasons. Childhood was not a great place. But you know, lessons learned. It's one of those things. And I've spent a lot of time in the world of personal development, in leadership and all of that. So cultivating myself, of course, created in me a desire to see what else could be done for other people.
That led me to coaching and consulting, which then ended up leading me to podcasting and ultimately to audio production. Basically, through a paid hobby I had as a voice actor. You know, I'm an entrepreneur, we can't have regular hobbies, we have to have hobbies that pay us. That's the way it works. We can't have normal hobbies. So I was a voice actor on the side and taking some classes and masterclasses in audiobook narration. And I had this chocolate and peanut butter moment, this light bulb, aha, that, “Oh, my God, why aren't all my clients and colleagues who are doing best selling campaigns and producing books, why aren't they doing audiobooks?” And that was, as Michael Gerber from The E Myth says, you know, my “entrepreneurial seizure” that led me to investigate the world of audio and led me to a big gap in the market and dove into that.
I took over my business within a year of starting to offer services in this big market gap of done-for-you audiobooks, and also the corporate side of podcasting. And that is kind of was the best decision that I ever made. And so I went from basically being a solopreneur, consultant who'd worked with more than 20 industries in eight countries to being the CEO of a company that now produces content in the land of audio that changes lives and hearts and minds for service-based companies and making sure that they're having this beautiful, human, authentic voice of their company that comes through this medium of audio.
Yeah, I'm curious. You've had a couple of different kind of pivots in your commercial world and career what are some of the things that you had to learn or had to kind of change about your thinking, your leadership, your approach during those pivots?
Bruce, I thought you said this was only a half hour podcast.
The top two. Just the top two.
The top two. One: choose who gets in your ear very carefully, very carefully. I'm very much of a happy puppy kind of person. I'm just like, “Yeah, let's do it. Let's change the world. Let's make it happen.” I have a lot of enthusiasm and energy and kind of that visionary habit–you see something and you want to make it happen. And it took me a long time to really learn how to vet the people that I was working with, or who I was throwing in with, because I assumed for a long time, in a very naive way, that everyone had the same values that I did around integrity and communication, and, you know, working together and making sure everybody wins. And it doesn't always work that day. Most people, most people, 99% of people on the planet are doing their best. But you know, problems and challenges that come up, don't always bring out the best in people. Sometimes it brings out the worst in people. And so learning how to create relationships over time and cultivate those relationships carefully has been a huge game changer in my world to keep things consistent and growing in the right direction.
And the other piece of the puzzle has been, you know, doing my own inner work. I'd say all the time that we were born with two voices: the voice you speak with and the voice that speaks to you. And working on the voice that speaks to me has made the biggest difference in anything that I've done as a leader, as a business owner, as a partner, a wife, a mom, you know, on any of that, to cultivate that inner world–and I could do many, many, many hours, and all the things that have happened there. But suffice to say it's been a journey.
That's a really great, that's a great realization. And yeah, I think it's, you know, time is your most precious commodity and where you spend it, you know, how you spend it, who you spend it with, are all kinds of things that are really going to influence your success and what you end up doing. Tell me a little bit about kind of why audio content? I mean, what's your kind of take on the world? You know, that we're in today? Why is audio content so powerful, so important? Why have you chosen to focus on it?
Well, going back to what I said a moment ago about our internet, our voices, it's something every human being on the planet is born with. And it's something that cannot be taken away. And speaking, as someone who has felt in the past that my voice was taken away and was suppressed, having that voice and having a place at the table to have that voice heard, is incredibly valuable. And so, everything that I have done, and what we do as a company with Twin Flames, is designed to give people a place at the table so that their voices are heard. And then it creates this incredible ripple effect that you know, podcasts and audiobooks are some of the lowest hanging fruit on the planet for people to start changing their lives.
If we can be a part of more leadership voices and more positive voices and more great information, reaching people all over the world, so that they can start to change their lives. That is a really powerful place to be. It is really about making the world a better place one kind of drip of audio at a time. And audio is very, very, very intimate compared to most other forms of media. It's single focus. Most people listen to audio right into their ear. So there is a neurological connection that's very powerful between, you know, the earbud I have in my ear, and the center of my brain, the amygdala, the hippocampus, all of those things. It's not just higher brain functions being impacted by the voice. And so there's an intimacy created in an impact that's really important. And storytelling, of course, is incredibly powerful worldwide. It's something that connects all of humanity. So when we bring all these factors together, neurological, you know, storytelling, how we're wired, the universal power of the human voice to create relationship–it's a very, very powerful medium. And it can be used in so many different ways and sliced and diced, and at the pace we're living at, you know, audio is the most portable form of media. You can listen when you can't read you can listen when you can't watch. So you know, it's never gone away. It's never going to go away. And all of those things together make it what I consider the perfect storm for perfect content.
Yeah, I was like that idea that audio content literally gets you in your prospect’s head.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got it.
So what are all the kinds of formats these days? I mean, we kind of went from you know, I date myself accidentally when I say I'm listening to a book on tape or something.
I know, right? Me too.
It's morphed so many times, like what is your kind of how do you kind of lay out the scope or the types of audio content that that you have at your disposal these days?
Well, we usually start with a primary form of content, which is generally a podcast. Podcasting, of course, is something that is hot right now. I’m on one as we speak, and it provides a nice bulk of content to start with, and a framework to start with. So unlike a video, the average video watcher will watch two minutes, but the average podcast listener will listen for 40 minutes.
And it's actually much harder to create short form content than it is slightly longer form content. We have thoughts, you know, curating what we say, you know, the brevity or like cutting things down to its core is much more challenging than this kind of a conversational format. And so, it allows people to be very natural, and very expansive in what they're talking about to dig into nitty gritty and to know that the listener is still going to be interested more than two minutes in, so you're not trying to pack things in. So we start with a longer form 20-30 minute podcast, usually sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but that's on average what it is. And that gives us a lovely bulk of content to work with.
From there, there's all different ways to slice and dice that type of content, repurpose it, reuse it. And the authenticity that comes through when you're using audio and using this type of format is really important to reach people on a deeper basis, rather than just an informational basis.
Yeah. And when you look at companies, what are I guess, what are some of the companies or situations that are best served with audio content? Like who can really benefit from this form of content?
Well, we love working with relationship-focused, service-based companies. People who, when they're working with their clients, they have long-term relationships with their clients. For example, companies, which seem very dry, but there's a lot of content available in the financial world, in insurance, for example, education of varying kinds, and even things like retail, retail conglomerates, and things like that, that are creating more experiences. Travel can be served in this way, as well, although it does, definitely does need to be paired with the visual aspect as well. But it can be really, really, really beautiful. You will see a lot of influencer podcasting, that's generally not our super cup of tea.
We do a lot of work in the leadership space, though, helping to humanize brands that are large, and give the brand an avatar because we don't really do business with faceless, nameless corporations. We want to do business with people. So being able to communicate brand values and culture and leadership and innovation through the avatar of a podcast host is extremely powerful. Another industry that benefits a lot from podcasting is healthcare. And all of these have constraints with compliance and communication and legal and all of that. But we're able to navigate all of those waters, as well.
Yeah, yeah. So what are some of the other challenges? If you are interested in developing audio content? Like what do you need to kind of consider or think about setup?
The lift is largely at the beginning when you're–well with any type of content, right, so you have to decide that has enough value that you're going to spend the brain capacity and the bandwidth and the time to work with a company like ours, so that we can help you shape that voice and shape the type of content that's really going to benefit you. So choosing that it's going to be a priority.
And then having deep, intimate communication and regular awesome content are things that you really want to do, you also need to decide in terms of you know–and we work with our companies on this–like who's going to be hosting, who's your avatar, who's your people or person that you're going to be featuring. And there's a lot of creative ways to work with that scenario, as well. Everything from solo hosts to two hosts to a panel discussion and everything in between. There's, there's a lot of different ways to manage those kinds of questions, particularly if there's multiple people inside of a company who want to be at the forefront being that avatar for the company, that's all completely manageable.
Another thing the company really needs to decide is if their marketing department, and their team, how we're going to dovetail this with their other strategic initiatives. Podcasting should be one piece and audio should be a piece of a larger strategic picture for a company. It should never be a band-aid or just an outlier. It needs to be integrated because it is something that has high strategic value, and can augment or replace creating content in other areas like blog posts, social media post images, articles for industry publications, and even events and getting used in events in different ways. So, there's a lot of applications and being willing to dive into the strategy is super important.
And what goes into that strategy? What questions are you asking or what do companies need to think about, you know, in terms of understanding kind of the bigger picture strategy before they really get into, you know, executing a particular kind of audio content strategy?
Yeah, we like to get into working with their marketing team. and finding out what are their core values that they're looking to communicate. What is that mission? What is their vision for their company, and then building out kind of an avatar of their host, not of their audience, but of their host. You know, if you had to personify your company, who is kind of that person and that spokesperson to do that? That's certainly an area that we start with, we also need to look at, as I mentioned, their current strategic initiatives. What's already working for them in terms of their marketing? How can podcasting build upon that and make it even more robust? And what are their pain points that we can address that are challenging?
So one of the pain points we run into a lot with companies is just the generation of content to begin with, particularly from a very busy team. A larger company, you know, when you ask somebody to go and say, “Hey, would you write a blog post on this?” somebody who's a technician or a salesperson or whatever, they may not be a writer to do that. Using interview techniques, we can extract and pull really wonderful, real conversational information from team members that can be pulled into podcasting content, or then even turned into articles or ebooks or, you know, other types of content, as well. And the creation process becomes 100 times easier. And this is, of course, scalable for any size company to do that, whether we're working with a sales team, or we're working with, you know, a CPA firm.
Yeah. You mentioned a couple times the idea of leveraging the content, what are some ways that you can kind of use the, the initial content, leverage it in different ways? You know, repurpose it. What are some things that companies should be thinking about when they develop a kind of a content strategy, starting with audio content?
Sure, I'll kind of walk you through a whole process, potential process flow on that. So let's say your podcast gets made, and the audio content is going out to 20-30 different audio distribution platforms, everything from Spotify to Apple podcasts and whatnot. So it lives all out in the world of public podcasting. Well, then the full edited transcript of that podcast, along with an embedded player, which has a number of features on it that are really helpful for the listener, click to tweets, and custom captioned images are all embedded on the website, usually in the form of a blog post. So we have, first, fresh content that goes into your blog.
And secondly, this is all gorgeous for your search engine optimization. Google loves fresh, long form conversational content, because Google is moving towards AI for their search engine optimization. This longer form conversational podcast content is so helpful for SEO, particularly with all the bells and whistles to kind of go along with it. So, from there, you can take the we have always have a little summary at the top and we have our quotes that are pulled out. Those are repurposed into social media posts, usually either on say a company page on LinkedIn that are then shared with the employees, shared with the team so that then they all can share those posts as well.
We also pull out short clips, little highlights from the podcast and turn them into what are called audiograms, which are little shareable, closed-caption dynamic videos. Those are also shared on social media. And one of my other favorite places to use audiograms is to embed them in related blog posts on the site that aren't necessarily the podcast episode, but maybe related content. So then you are cross-pollinating your website content and also creating a more dynamic experience for somebody visiting your website, because now you've got this lovely little 30-second to one minute long video that's breaking up the content on a related post and maybe getting people interested in staying on your website longer. Yeah, so those are just a few of the things that you can do.
We even recommend that whoever is the guest on the podcast, or even the host, depending on the situation, repurpose the link to their podcast on the publication section of their LinkedIn profile. A lot of people only use articles or blog posts, but you can use your podcast interviews as part of your publications list. And that helps build out, of course, your LinkedIn presence. For those folks of us who are in the B2B world or in the, you know, the business world. It's really nice to have that additional fresh content on your LinkedIn profile to kind of keep you top of mind for people.
So those are just a couple. Those are just a couple elements. And the other big one we see a lot of is turning podcast content into industry publication articles. So basically having writers–either folks we've introduced you to, or folks on their team. One of our companies that we work with primary tax solutions, they're a specialty tax company, and they've now had six articles based on their podcasts–content produced and published in publications like Accounting Today.
Yeah, I love that idea is like you create one piece and then you can find lots of different ways. Oh, my goodness repurposing it makes it so much easier or just create so much more leverage in terms of the work you do. What are some of the challenges? Certainly, when I started podcasting, you know, it wasn't, there was some hesitation and trepidation about kind of really getting into this and putting myself out there like that. What do you do to help folks who, you know, are considering this, but they're not quite sure they have maybe some, you know, maybe a little bit of fear around some of this stuff. You know, creating this content, really putting it out there–what are ways in which you help them kind of evaluate and create an opportunity for them to really get into this space?
It really just, it lives in the world of conversation. So, Bruce, would it be accurate to say that, you know, one of your big considerations was time?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. And that's really the biggest thing we have to talk about is, where are your priorities, and where is your time going to be, because even if we're handling 90% of what has to go into the podcast production, we're still going to need, you know, some time for the marketing team and of course, the host and things like that to spend some time in that arena. So it just really has to be a priority, and they need to be well suited. So there's a lot of evaluation that goes on at the beginning, everything from talking about, like I said, the creation of kind of this avatar. We even use thought leadership archetypes that we have developed based on the 12 Jungian archetypes to help kind of shape the brand of the podcast in conjunction with the company's brand to make sure that there's this consistent voice.
So everything that we do really lives in relationship and inquiry and curiosity. And and then from there, the strategy, but we come at it–I would say that, you know, a lot of times I'm practicing my “Business Buddha” and that means I come from a place of non-attachment. It really has to be all about the clients and not about us and seeing what's going to be best. And sometimes it's not the best solution for that company, or it's not the right time. Sometimes it's the absolute perfect time, and the company is absolutely 100% ready to go. Sometimes there's a little bit of a delay until a few ducks get in a row and we say, “Hey, you know, you really should have X, Y, and Z handled before we start this process.” So it always has to be in the best interest of the company, so that we can get the best product, because, as you know, Bruce, podcasting isn't a one and done deal. It's a long tail game. Yeah, you know, so we got to have time.
Yeah, no, let's dig into that just a little bit. ‘Cause I find I see a lot of podcasts out there that get to like episode eight.
Yeah.
You know, big plans, big ideas, and then, you know, just, you know, a big initial push, but, they just kind of fade quickly. What are some things that can help you to prevent that or will help you, you know, kind of be in it for the long game?
Well, most of our companies, we recommend starting with a bi-weekly schedule, instead of a weekly schedule. You can always add episodes. You can always add frequency as you go. But bi-weekly gives enough frequency for folks to really get content out on a regular basis without it necessarily being an overwhelming time commitment. We also work to develop out the content calendar, and make sure that we've actually got, you know, 12 or 24 potential episodes kind of planned out. And then many times we're helping with, you know, getting the guests on. You know, let's look at your networking list. Who do you want to have on and how can we help you facilitate that communication, the guest preparation and making the actual recording process as easy as possible for folks? You know, you and I both use an interface that's very easy to get on. You're using was it Tricast here. Is that what we're both on?
Yeah.
So Tricast, Squadcast, Riverside FM–there's a bunch of them that really helped make the recording process very high quality and very easy, no matter who you are, where you are, as long as you've got a relatively decent internet connection. Yeah, and we help facilitate those with live direction, sometimes, helping people actually kind of feel comfortable, relax them. We do episode preparation sometimes and actually create the outlines for episodes for companies and working with their marketing team to make it easier for them to just have a nice flow of every episode. And of course, any kind of host or guest training when it comes down to the actual vocal or interview side of things. It's really a matter of finding out what are the needs, what are the desires, and creating the right solutions to fill it. There's no cookie cutter solution.
Yeah. And are most of your clients looking to develop leads for like a lead funnel or what are the outcomes that sort of the tangible business outcomes that you're typically focused on with clients?
The tangible outcomes that clients are usually looking to focus on are multifold. Podcasting of this particular kind is a beautiful combination of relationship marketing, influence marketing, and content marketing. So we're looking to have guests chosen strategically that are not necessarily leads for their company–there's a whole philosophy of podcasting that you interview people you want to have as clients. That's not really where we live. The companies that we work with are well-established. They're doing very, very well in their fields. And this is really a move from having a brand to becoming thought leaders in an industry. So it has more to do with influence and high quality content than it does with directly getting leads.
But that being said, it usually–well, actually, it always–it always ends up in developing leads, because collaborations come out of the guests that you have on the show, out of the visibility that you have, out of the elevation in the industry of now becoming a media presence, all of those things happen, and it is largely because podcasting opens doors when it comes to relationships. You know, our clients are always looking to have high quality guests on their show, and then following up with those guests afterwards to help deepen that relationship and develop collaboration inevitably adds leads to additional opportunities and more leads 100% of the time.
Yeah. And what recommendations do you have for folks in terms of kind of picking subjects, things that you're going to weave into your conversations, finding guests? I mean, how do you go from, “Hey, I want to start a podcast, I want to, you know, have these sort of business outcomes,” to actually getting things scheduled and figuring out what you're going to talk about?
Oh, okay, that's a big world. So let's break it down just into a couple of first steps. One is to look at your values. What do you want to be known for? You know, who are you in in the world? What does your company want to be known for? And what are your brand values, the pillars that you operate by that you want to make sure it get communicated out to an audience?
Then there's a little bit of a Venn diagram. You've got your brand values and your culture, and then you have what you're really good at, you know, what's your areas of focus, and you're going to overlap those two areas on each other. And then the third area that you're going to your trifecta, a little three circle Venn diagram is going to be how do you want to communicate it?
So when you're talking about podcasting, you have to have somebody on your team who's got a proclivity towards a microphone. In some way, shape or form, they have to have a desire for it. Because otherwise you're going to end up you know, like, like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. “Bueller, Bueller? Bueller?” It's got to be dynamic, right? You somebody who is inclined. So that you know, so then you got your format of your show. So you've got those three pieces that you want overlap to find kind of your sweet spot in podcasting. And I will say, that's where you start. Podcasting is one of those things, just like I hate to say it, a website. That is, you're always evolving over time, and you're going to have seasons. You're going to have segments, you're going to evolve it over time. So you got to start with where you're most comfortable and most seasoned in your expertise, and then you're going to evolve and grow it from there.
Tina, this has been a pleasure if people want to find out more about you about the work that you do, what's the best way to get that information?
You can just hop over to twinflamesstudios.com and we are there. There's samples of our work. You can reach us there and we're happy to connect with you and explore, no matter where you're at in the process.
That's great. I will make sure that all the links are in the show notes here. Tina, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you, Bruce.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Be sure to subscribe using your favorite podcast app, so you don't miss our future episodes. See you next time.
About Scaling Up ServicesScaling Up Services is a podcast devoted to helping founders, partners, CEOs, key executives, and managers of service-based businesses scale their companies faster and with less drama. For more information and a list of recent episodes, please visit www.scalingupservices.com.
About Eckfeldt & AssociatesEckfeldt & Associates is a strategic coaching and advisory firm based in New York City and servicing growth companies around the world. Founded and led by Inc. 500 CEO Bruce Eckfeldt, E&A helps founders, CEOs, and leadership teams develop highly differentiated business strategies and create high-performance leadership teams who can execute with focus and rigor. Leveraging the Scaling Up, 3HAG, and Predictive Index toolsets, the firm has worked with a wide range of dynamic industries including technology, professional services, real estate, healthcare, pharmaceutical, and cannabis/hemp. For more information, please visit www.eckfeldt.com or email at info@eckfeldt.com.
Did you know one of the most powerful ways you can connect with your clients is through podcasting? You can learn more about the benefits of podcasting, what questions you need to answer before you begin your podcast, and how Twin Flames Studios helps get your voice into more ears on my guest interview with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast.(Scaling Up Services Podcast with Bruce Eckfeldt, October 2021)
Tina spoke with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast to discuss how podcasts hone your brand, provide evergreen marketing content, and create deeper relationships.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why audio is one of the most intimate mediums for storytelling
The top questions to ask before you start your podcast
How podcasts can revitalize your marketing and expand your reach
Bruce Eckfeldt Are you a CEO looking to scale your company faster and easier? Check out Thrive Roundtable. Thrive combines a moderated peer group mastermind expert one on one coaching access to proven growth tools and a 24/7 support community. Created by Inc. award-winning CEO and certified Scaling Up Business coach, Bruce Eckfeldt, Thrive will help you grow your business more quickly and with less drama. For details on the program, visit eckfeldt.com/thrive.
Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. Our guest today isTina Dietz. She is the founder at Twin Flames Studios. We're going to talk to her about the work that she does with companies helping them with creating content, with promotion. This is a really kind of interesting topic. I think so many service companies based their marketing, based their sales and lead development, based on thought leadership and getting content out in the world. And there's so many different types of content and so many different ways you can do it. I really think they–obviously I love podcasting–but you know, podcasts, audiobooks, you know, spoken word kind of content, there's so many things you can do with it. There's so many things you can use to generate awareness, generate thought leadership, generate leads. I'm excited for this and excited to hear Tina’s story and how she got into this this world of audio content production and what she's been doing with service companies. So, with that, Tina, welcome to the program.
Tina DietzHey, Bruce, thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure having you on. So before we dive into what you're doing with Twin Flames right now and stuff, why don't we talk a little bit about you and get a sense of your background? Give us the story. What was your professional journey? And how did you get into what you're doing today?
Well, like most entrepreneurs, it's fairly stupid. It's just like, “Well, how the hell did this happen?” Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what we hear more than everything. If you had asked me, you know, when I was growing up, if, you know, in 25 years or whatever, you're going to own a company that produces audio content in the land of thought leadership for service-based companies. I'm sorry, what? What, what? It didn't even exist, right? You know, at the time?
So my upbringing was I had a younger sibling–that was a business. My parents owned a business that they started when I was three years old. It was my younger sibling, and I hated it. It was a wood burning stove and fireplace business. So real sexy, awesome. And basically, that was my constant companion growing up. So I was steeped like a tea bag in entrepreneurship. From a very young age, I started answering phones when I was four and going to trade shows when I was six, I do a whole talk will have to do another time maybe on how I found my purpose in life through the Ginsu knife demonstration at a local fair. So that’s a whole thing, that's the whole thing. And, you know, I never really thought I'd own a business, but I became a therapist–for a number of reasons. Childhood was not a great place. But you know, lessons learned. It's one of those things. And I've spent a lot of time in the world of personal development, in leadership and all of that. So cultivating myself, of course, created in me a desire to see what else could be done for other people.
That led me to coaching and consulting, which then ended up leading me to podcasting and ultimately to audio production. Basically, through a paid hobby I had as a voice actor. You know, I'm an entrepreneur, we can't have regular hobbies, we have to have hobbies that pay us. That's the way it works. We can't have normal hobbies. So I was a voice actor on the side and taking some classes and masterclasses in audiobook narration. And I had this chocolate and peanut butter moment, this light bulb, aha, that, “Oh, my God, why aren't all my clients and colleagues who are doing best selling campaigns and producing books, why aren't they doing audiobooks?” And that was, as Michael Gerber from The E Myth says, you know, my “entrepreneurial seizure” that led me to investigate the world of audio and led me to a big gap in the market and dove into that.
I took over my business within a year of starting to offer services in this big market gap of done-for-you audiobooks, and also the corporate side of podcasting. And that is kind of was the best decision that I ever made. And so I went from basically being a solopreneur, consultant who'd worked with more than 20 industries in eight countries to being the CEO of a company that now produces content in the land of audio that changes lives and hearts and minds for service-based companies and making sure that they're having this beautiful, human, authentic voice of their company that comes through this medium of audio.
Yeah, I'm curious. You've had a couple of different kind of pivots in your commercial world and career what are some of the things that you had to learn or had to kind of change about your thinking, your leadership, your approach during those pivots?
Bruce, I thought you said this was only a half hour podcast.
The top two. Just the top two.
The top two. One: choose who gets in your ear very carefully, very carefully. I'm very much of a happy puppy kind of person. I'm just like, “Yeah, let's do it. Let's change the world. Let's make it happen.” I have a lot of enthusiasm and energy and kind of that visionary habit–you see something and you want to make it happen. And it took me a long time to really learn how to vet the people that I was working with, or who I was throwing in with, because I assumed for a long time, in a very naive way, that everyone had the same values that I did around integrity and communication, and, you know, working together and making sure everybody wins. And it doesn't always work that day. Most people, most people, 99% of people on the planet are doing their best. But you know, problems and challenges that come up, don't always bring out the best in people. Sometimes it brings out the worst in people. And so learning how to create relationships over time and cultivate those relationships carefully has been a huge game changer in my world to keep things consistent and growing in the right direction.
And the other piece of the puzzle has been, you know, doing my own inner work. I'd say all the time that we were born with two voices: the voice you speak with and the voice that speaks to you. And working on the voice that speaks to me has made the biggest difference in anything that I've done as a leader, as a business owner, as a partner, a wife, a mom, you know, on any of that, to cultivate that inner world–and I could do many, many, many hours, and all the things that have happened there. But suffice to say it's been a journey.
That's a really great, that's a great realization. And yeah, I think it's, you know, time is your most precious commodity and where you spend it, you know, how you spend it, who you spend it with, are all kinds of things that are really going to influence your success and what you end up doing. Tell me a little bit about kind of why audio content? I mean, what's your kind of take on the world? You know, that we're in today? Why is audio content so powerful, so important? Why have you chosen to focus on it?
Well, going back to what I said a moment ago about our internet, our voices, it's something every human being on the planet is born with. And it's something that cannot be taken away. And speaking, as someone who has felt in the past that my voice was taken away and was suppressed, having that voice and having a place at the table to have that voice heard, is incredibly valuable. And so, everything that I have done, and what we do as a company with Twin Flames, is designed to give people a place at the table so that their voices are heard. And then it creates this incredible ripple effect that you know, podcasts and audiobooks are some of the lowest hanging fruit on the planet for people to start changing their lives.
If we can be a part of more leadership voices and more positive voices and more great information, reaching people all over the world, so that they can start to change their lives. That is a really powerful place to be. It is really about making the world a better place one kind of drip of audio at a time. And audio is very, very, very intimate compared to most other forms of media. It's single focus. Most people listen to audio right into their ear. So there is a neurological connection that's very powerful between, you know, the earbud I have in my ear, and the center of my brain, the amygdala, the hippocampus, all of those things. It's not just higher brain functions being impacted by the voice. And so there's an intimacy created in an impact that's really important. And storytelling, of course, is incredibly powerful worldwide. It's something that connects all of humanity. So when we bring all these factors together, neurological, you know, storytelling, how we're wired, the universal power of the human voice to create relationship–it's a very, very powerful medium. And it can be used in so many different ways and sliced and diced, and at the pace we're living at, you know, audio is the most portable form of media. You can listen when you can't read you can listen when you can't watch. So you know, it's never gone away. It's never going to go away. And all of those things together make it what I consider the perfect storm for perfect content.
Yeah, I was like that idea that audio content literally gets you in your prospect’s head.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got it.
So what are all the kinds of formats these days? I mean, we kind of went from you know, I date myself accidentally when I say I'm listening to a book on tape or something.
I know, right? Me too.
It's morphed so many times, like what is your kind of how do you kind of lay out the scope or the types of audio content that that you have at your disposal these days?
Well, we usually start with a primary form of content, which is generally a podcast. Podcasting, of course, is something that is hot right now. I’m on one as we speak, and it provides a nice bulk of content to start with, and a framework to start with. So unlike a video, the average video watcher will watch two minutes, but the average podcast listener will listen for 40 minutes.
And it's actually much harder to create short form content than it is slightly longer form content. We have thoughts, you know, curating what we say, you know, the brevity or like cutting things down to its core is much more challenging than this kind of a conversational format. And so, it allows people to be very natural, and very expansive in what they're talking about to dig into nitty gritty and to know that the listener is still going to be interested more than two minutes in, so you're not trying to pack things in. So we start with a longer form 20-30 minute podcast, usually sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but that's on average what it is. And that gives us a lovely bulk of content to work with.
From there, there's all different ways to slice and dice that type of content, repurpose it, reuse it. And the authenticity that comes through when you're using audio and using this type of format is really important to reach people on a deeper basis, rather than just an informational basis.
Yeah. And when you look at companies, what are I guess, what are some of the companies or situations that are best served with audio content? Like who can really benefit from this form of content?
Well, we love working with relationship-focused, service-based companies. People who, when they're working with their clients, they have long-term relationships with their clients. For example, companies, which seem very dry, but there's a lot of content available in the financial world, in insurance, for example, education of varying kinds, and even things like retail, retail conglomerates, and things like that, that are creating more experiences. Travel can be served in this way, as well, although it does, definitely does need to be paired with the visual aspect as well. But it can be really, really, really beautiful. You will see a lot of influencer podcasting, that's generally not our super cup of tea.
We do a lot of work in the leadership space, though, helping to humanize brands that are large, and give the brand an avatar because we don't really do business with faceless, nameless corporations. We want to do business with people. So being able to communicate brand values and culture and leadership and innovation through the avatar of a podcast host is extremely powerful. Another industry that benefits a lot from podcasting is healthcare. And all of these have constraints with compliance and communication and legal and all of that. But we're able to navigate all of those waters, as well.
Yeah, yeah. So what are some of the other challenges? If you are interested in developing audio content? Like what do you need to kind of consider or think about setup?
The lift is largely at the beginning when you're–well with any type of content, right, so you have to decide that has enough value that you're going to spend the brain capacity and the bandwidth and the time to work with a company like ours, so that we can help you shape that voice and shape the type of content that's really going to benefit you. So choosing that it's going to be a priority.
And then having deep, intimate communication and regular awesome content are things that you really want to do, you also need to decide in terms of you know–and we work with our companies on this–like who's going to be hosting, who's your avatar, who's your people or person that you're going to be featuring. And there's a lot of creative ways to work with that scenario, as well. Everything from solo hosts to two hosts to a panel discussion and everything in between. There's, there's a lot of different ways to manage those kinds of questions, particularly if there's multiple people inside of a company who want to be at the forefront being that avatar for the company, that's all completely manageable.
Another thing the company really needs to decide is if their marketing department, and their team, how we're going to dovetail this with their other strategic initiatives. Podcasting should be one piece and audio should be a piece of a larger strategic picture for a company. It should never be a band-aid or just an outlier. It needs to be integrated because it is something that has high strategic value, and can augment or replace creating content in other areas like blog posts, social media post images, articles for industry publications, and even events and getting used in events in different ways. So, there's a lot of applications and being willing to dive into the strategy is super important.
And what goes into that strategy? What questions are you asking or what do companies need to think about, you know, in terms of understanding kind of the bigger picture strategy before they really get into, you know, executing a particular kind of audio content strategy?
Yeah, we like to get into working with their marketing team. and finding out what are their core values that they're looking to communicate. What is that mission? What is their vision for their company, and then building out kind of an avatar of their host, not of their audience, but of their host. You know, if you had to personify your company, who is kind of that person and that spokesperson to do that? That's certainly an area that we start with, we also need to look at, as I mentioned, their current strategic initiatives. What's already working for them in terms of their marketing? How can podcasting build upon that and make it even more robust? And what are their pain points that we can address that are challenging?
So one of the pain points we run into a lot with companies is just the generation of content to begin with, particularly from a very busy team. A larger company, you know, when you ask somebody to go and say, “Hey, would you write a blog post on this?” somebody who's a technician or a salesperson or whatever, they may not be a writer to do that. Using interview techniques, we can extract and pull really wonderful, real conversational information from team members that can be pulled into podcasting content, or then even turned into articles or ebooks or, you know, other types of content, as well. And the creation process becomes 100 times easier. And this is, of course, scalable for any size company to do that, whether we're working with a sales team, or we're working with, you know, a CPA firm.
Yeah. You mentioned a couple times the idea of leveraging the content, what are some ways that you can kind of use the, the initial content, leverage it in different ways? You know, repurpose it. What are some things that companies should be thinking about when they develop a kind of a content strategy, starting with audio content?
Sure, I'll kind of walk you through a whole process, potential process flow on that. So let's say your podcast gets made, and the audio content is going out to 20-30 different audio distribution platforms, everything from Spotify to Apple podcasts and whatnot. So it lives all out in the world of public podcasting. Well, then the full edited transcript of that podcast, along with an embedded player, which has a number of features on it that are really helpful for the listener, click to tweets, and custom captioned images are all embedded on the website, usually in the form of a blog post. So we have, first, fresh content that goes into your blog.
And secondly, this is all gorgeous for your search engine optimization. Google loves fresh, long form conversational content, because Google is moving towards AI for their search engine optimization. This longer form conversational podcast content is so helpful for SEO, particularly with all the bells and whistles to kind of go along with it. So, from there, you can take the we have always have a little summary at the top and we have our quotes that are pulled out. Those are repurposed into social media posts, usually either on say a company page on LinkedIn that are then shared with the employees, shared with the team so that then they all can share those posts as well.
We also pull out short clips, little highlights from the podcast and turn them into what are called audiograms, which are little shareable, closed-caption dynamic videos. Those are also shared on social media. And one of my other favorite places to use audiograms is to embed them in related blog posts on the site that aren't necessarily the podcast episode, but maybe related content. So then you are cross-pollinating your website content and also creating a more dynamic experience for somebody visiting your website, because now you've got this lovely little 30-second to one minute long video that's breaking up the content on a related post and maybe getting people interested in staying on your website longer. Yeah, so those are just a few of the things that you can do.
We even recommend that whoever is the guest on the podcast, or even the host, depending on the situation, repurpose the link to their podcast on the publication section of their LinkedIn profile. A lot of people only use articles or blog posts, but you can use your podcast interviews as part of your publications list. And that helps build out, of course, your LinkedIn presence. For those folks of us who are in the B2B world or in the, you know, the business world. It's really nice to have that additional fresh content on your LinkedIn profile to kind of keep you top of mind for people.
So those are just a couple. Those are just a couple elements. And the other big one we see a lot of is turning podcast content into industry publication articles. So basically having writers–either folks we've introduced you to, or folks on their team. One of our companies that we work with primary tax solutions, they're a specialty tax company, and they've now had six articles based on their podcasts–content produced and published in publications like Accounting Today.
Yeah, I love that idea is like you create one piece and then you can find lots of different ways. Oh, my goodness repurposing it makes it so much easier or just create so much more leverage in terms of the work you do. What are some of the challenges? Certainly, when I started podcasting, you know, it wasn't, there was some hesitation and trepidation about kind of really getting into this and putting myself out there like that. What do you do to help folks who, you know, are considering this, but they're not quite sure they have maybe some, you know, maybe a little bit of fear around some of this stuff. You know, creating this content, really putting it out there–what are ways in which you help them kind of evaluate and create an opportunity for them to really get into this space?
It really just, it lives in the world of conversation. So, Bruce, would it be accurate to say that, you know, one of your big considerations was time?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. And that's really the biggest thing we have to talk about is, where are your priorities, and where is your time going to be, because even if we're handling 90% of what has to go into the podcast production, we're still going to need, you know, some time for the marketing team and of course, the host and things like that to spend some time in that arena. So it just really has to be a priority, and they need to be well suited. So there's a lot of evaluation that goes on at the beginning, everything from talking about, like I said, the creation of kind of this avatar. We even use thought leadership archetypes that we have developed based on the 12 Jungian archetypes to help kind of shape the brand of the podcast in conjunction with the company's brand to make sure that there's this consistent voice.
So everything that we do really lives in relationship and inquiry and curiosity. And and then from there, the strategy, but we come at it–I would say that, you know, a lot of times I'm practicing my “Business Buddha” and that means I come from a place of non-attachment. It really has to be all about the clients and not about us and seeing what's going to be best. And sometimes it's not the best solution for that company, or it's not the right time. Sometimes it's the absolute perfect time, and the company is absolutely 100% ready to go. Sometimes there's a little bit of a delay until a few ducks get in a row and we say, “Hey, you know, you really should have X, Y, and Z handled before we start this process.” So it always has to be in the best interest of the company, so that we can get the best product, because, as you know, Bruce, podcasting isn't a one and done deal. It's a long tail game. Yeah, you know, so we got to have time.
Yeah, no, let's dig into that just a little bit. ‘Cause I find I see a lot of podcasts out there that get to like episode eight.
Yeah.
You know, big plans, big ideas, and then, you know, just, you know, a big initial push, but, they just kind of fade quickly. What are some things that can help you to prevent that or will help you, you know, kind of be in it for the long game?
Well, most of our companies, we recommend starting with a bi-weekly schedule, instead of a weekly schedule. You can always add episodes. You can always add frequency as you go. But bi-weekly gives enough frequency for folks to really get content out on a regular basis without it necessarily being an overwhelming time commitment. We also work to develop out the content calendar, and make sure that we've actually got, you know, 12 or 24 potential episodes kind of planned out. And then many times we're helping with, you know, getting the guests on. You know, let's look at your networking list. Who do you want to have on and how can we help you facilitate that communication, the guest preparation and making the actual recording process as easy as possible for folks? You know, you and I both use an interface that's very easy to get on. You're using was it Tricast here. Is that what we're both on?
Yeah.
So Tricast, Squadcast, Riverside FM–there's a bunch of them that really helped make the recording process very high quality and very easy, no matter who you are, where you are, as long as you've got a relatively decent internet connection. Yeah, and we help facilitate those with live direction, sometimes, helping people actually kind of feel comfortable, relax them. We do episode preparation sometimes and actually create the outlines for episodes for companies and working with their marketing team to make it easier for them to just have a nice flow of every episode. And of course, any kind of host or guest training when it comes down to the actual vocal or interview side of things. It's really a matter of finding out what are the needs, what are the desires, and creating the right solutions to fill it. There's no cookie cutter solution.
Yeah. And are most of your clients looking to develop leads for like a lead funnel or what are the outcomes that sort of the tangible business outcomes that you're typically focused on with clients?
The tangible outcomes that clients are usually looking to focus on are multifold. Podcasting of this particular kind is a beautiful combination of relationship marketing, influence marketing, and content marketing. So we're looking to have guests chosen strategically that are not necessarily leads for their company–there's a whole philosophy of podcasting that you interview people you want to have as clients. That's not really where we live. The companies that we work with are well-established. They're doing very, very well in their fields. And this is really a move from having a brand to becoming thought leaders in an industry. So it has more to do with influence and high quality content than it does with directly getting leads.
But that being said, it usually–well, actually, it always–it always ends up in developing leads, because collaborations come out of the guests that you have on the show, out of the visibility that you have, out of the elevation in the industry of now becoming a media presence, all of those things happen, and it is largely because podcasting opens doors when it comes to relationships. You know, our clients are always looking to have high quality guests on their show, and then following up with those guests afterwards to help deepen that relationship and develop collaboration inevitably adds leads to additional opportunities and more leads 100% of the time.
Yeah. And what recommendations do you have for folks in terms of kind of picking subjects, things that you're going to weave into your conversations, finding guests? I mean, how do you go from, “Hey, I want to start a podcast, I want to, you know, have these sort of business outcomes,” to actually getting things scheduled and figuring out what you're going to talk about?
Oh, okay, that's a big world. So let's break it down just into a couple of first steps. One is to look at your values. What do you want to be known for? You know, who are you in in the world? What does your company want to be known for? And what are your brand values, the pillars that you operate by that you want to make sure it get communicated out to an audience?
Then there's a little bit of a Venn diagram. You've got your brand values and your culture, and then you have what you're really good at, you know, what's your areas of focus, and you're going to overlap those two areas on each other. And then the third area that you're going to your trifecta, a little three circle Venn diagram is going to be how do you want to communicate it?
So when you're talking about podcasting, you have to have somebody on your team who's got a proclivity towards a microphone. In some way, shape or form, they have to have a desire for it. Because otherwise you're going to end up you know, like, like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. “Bueller, Bueller? Bueller?” It's got to be dynamic, right? You somebody who is inclined. So that you know, so then you got your format of your show. So you've got those three pieces that you want overlap to find kind of your sweet spot in podcasting. And I will say, that's where you start. Podcasting is one of those things, just like I hate to say it, a website. That is, you're always evolving over time, and you're going to have seasons. You're going to have segments, you're going to evolve it over time. So you got to start with where you're most comfortable and most seasoned in your expertise, and then you're going to evolve and grow it from there.
Tina, this has been a pleasure if people want to find out more about you about the work that you do, what's the best way to get that information?
You can just hop over to twinflamesstudios.com and we are there. There's samples of our work. You can reach us there and we're happy to connect with you and explore, no matter where you're at in the process.
That's great. I will make sure that all the links are in the show notes here. Tina, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you, Bruce.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Be sure to subscribe using your favorite podcast app, so you don't miss our future episodes. See you next time.
About Scaling Up ServicesScaling Up Services is a podcast devoted to helping founders, partners, CEOs, key executives, and managers of service-based businesses scale their companies faster and with less drama. For more information and a list of recent episodes, please visit www.scalingupservices.com.
About Eckfeldt & AssociatesEckfeldt & Associates is a strategic coaching and advisory firm based in New York City and servicing growth companies around the world. Founded and led by Inc. 500 CEO Bruce Eckfeldt, E&A helps founders, CEOs, and leadership teams develop highly differentiated business strategies and create high-performance leadership teams who can execute with focus and rigor. Leveraging the Scaling Up, 3HAG, and Predictive Index toolsets, the firm has worked with a wide range of dynamic industries including technology, professional services, real estate, healthcare, pharmaceutical, and cannabis/hemp. For more information, please visit www.eckfeldt.com or email at info@eckfeldt.com.
Have you ever considered that your voice is an instrument and your thoughts and beliefs are the music you’re playing? If you want to learn how to “tune” your voice, take a listen to my guest appearance on the new episode of the More than a Few Words podcast, hosted by Lorraine Ball.(More Than a Few Words Podcast with Lorraine Ball, September 2021)
Recently, Tina joined Lorraine Ball on the More than a Few Words podcast to talk about how to use your voice to deepen your connection with others, enhance your credibility, and strengthen your leadership.
In this episode:
You'll discover the 5-7 different vocal qualities that are highly associated with credibility, trustworthiness, and perceptions of leadership
How these elements impact your career and income
Techniques to sound more professional, confident, and knowledgable
Lorraine BallHave you ever thought about what an amazing instrument your voice is? How the tone, the pitch and the tempo of your speaking voice can change how people view you? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today. Okay, here's the show. Welcome to More Than a Few Words – a marketing conversation for business owners. MTFW is part of your digital toolbox and this is your host, Lorraine Ball. I grew up in New York. I have a slightly nasal New York accent. That's part of my voice. But over the years, I've certainly worked to try to moderate that. And it is important that you do, because you can create an impression with your voice. That's what we're going to talk about today. And I couldn't think of a better person to have this conversation with than Tina Dietz. Tina's an award-winning and internationally-acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert. She has been featured on media outlets, including ABC, INC.com, Huffington Post, and Forbes.Tina's first podcast, The StartSomething Show, was named by INC Magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs. Her company, Twin Flames Studios, amplifies the influence of brands and leaders through high ROI audiobook and podcasting solutions. Tina, welcome to the show!
Tina DietzThanks, Lorraine. I really appreciate you having me on.
I am so excited to have you here, because this is something I've worked on a lot over the years and I think it's really important. But why don't we start with the question: What are the important qualities of someone's voice that makes them an effective leadership voice?
There’s about seven different qualities that are highly associated with someone's credibility, trustworthiness, and perception of leadership when it comes to vocal qualities. And the research around this is a little bit astounding. For example, Duke University did a study of almost 1000 CEOs, and found that on the topic of pitch alone, CEOs who had a lower pitch to their voice, had more tenure, commanded larger companies, had more perception of credibility and leadership, and made more money to the tune on average of an additional $180,000 per year.
And, you know, I know a lot of women like myself are like, “Crap!” You know, that's not necessarily a good statistic for us. But it's not that alone. The most highly, highly, highly associated vocal characteristic with credibility, leadership, trustworthiness is tempo. And this isn’t a particular tempo, it's your natural tempo. And this has to do with how we perceive somebody's breathing and their natural rhythm—the rhythm of their voice. So if you're, if you're talking a little bit too fast, and you're kind of gasping a little bit and all of that, that shows that you're maybe a little more anxious or nervous or not present. If you're talking slow, and a lot of pauses, then that may show that, again, you're not present and not confident or not sure of what you're saying. So those are two aspects of vocal qualities that really have been shown in research to make a difference. Other ones are sonority, which is the pleasantness of one's voice, articulation, as well as flow. And flow and tempo and articulation all kind of go together, as well.
And, you know, I know a lot of women like myself are like, “Crap!” You know, that's not necessarily a good statistic for us. But it's not that alone. The most highly, highly, highly associated vocal characteristic with credibility, leadership, trustworthiness is tempo. And this isn’t a particular tempo, it's your natural tempo. And this has to do with how we perceive somebody's breathing and their natural rhythm—the rhythm of their voice. So if you're, if you're talking a little bit too fast, and you're kind of gasping a little bit and all of that, that shows that you're maybe a little more anxious or nervous or not present. If you're talking slow, and a lot of pauses, then that may show that, again, you're not present and not confident or not sure of what you're saying. So those are two aspects of vocal qualities that really have been shown in research to make a difference. Other ones are sonority, which is the pleasantness of one's voice, articulation, as well as flow. And flow and tempo and articulation all kind of go together, as well.
So that's really reassuring to someone like me, because as soon as you started talking about it, I heard the deeper bass tone, having come out of a corporate environment, lots of men, I'm like, “Of course that sounds better to their ears.” And that's something that's really hard for me to change. But I can work on the flow, the pacing, some of those other qualities that make me sound more confident.
Exactly. But you know, and the good news is, is that everybody's voice is like a fingerprint. It's unique to us. So if you have an unusual voice, it doesn't mean that you have to fit into a cookie-cutter situation to be unique. You just need to be more of yourself. And the more that you work your voice out like a muscle, like you would take care of your body—it's a very complex musculature in there and your lungs and your throat and your neck and your shoulders, your face, everything combined—you know this, this beautiful orchestra happening inside of your body to get your voice out into the world. If you pay attention to it and work it out, it'll do wonderful things for you.
As a business owner, I'm thinking, “Okay, I'm not going to be doing big presentations, I'm not going to be standing in front of a room of 100 people. Does my voice really matter?”
Yes, yes, it does. It absolutely does. Because business is all about relationships. And every relationship you form, whether it's with a prospective client, it's with colleagues, it's at a networking group, it's on a phone call, it doesn't matter, you bring your voice with you everywhere you go. And you owe it to yourself, and you owe it to the growth of your business, your company, to bring your voice with you and to have it be a representation of who you are as a leader, and who you are as a brand.
Do you think that you have a different voice when you're at home or at work? Is it one voice? Or does it change based on the situation? And those are obviously the two extremes, but does your voice change in different situations?
Yeah, yeah, I think it does. Because we have a range, right? Just like you have a vocal range low to high, we also have a range of expression. And sometimes the expression that you use in business is not necessarily going to be the same expression you use with your kids.
That being said, I think most people draw two strong boundaries between what's in business, and what's really in your heart. And the more integrated we become from the inside and the outside, the more effective we become as leaders. So vocal leadership isn't really all about the external voice, it's about the dance between your internal voice and your external voice. It's analogous to a virtuoso musician. So, if you imagine your external voice is the instrument you're playing, and your internal voice—your thoughts, your beliefs, your message, all the things that make you who you are—that's the music that you're playing. So if you can learn how to create the arrangement of the music that you're playing, and pay attention to the external instrument, that's when you become a virtuoso.
Wow, I love the comparison between your voice and an instrument, because it really, to me, it makes a lot of sense. I can see that whole tuning and being pleasant to the ear. And even jazz sometimes is appealing to a certain audience. So I like that analogy, because it can be… your voice needs to fit the situation, it also needs to be kind of true to who you are. Are there things that we do with our voice that really work against us? That send the wrong message?
We could do it pretty easily. There's two in particular that in a business setting, and we're talking specifically about leadership and credibility, that are credibility killers. One is vocal fry. Now, if you don't know what vocal fry is, you can think about the Kardashians. So it basically makes you sound uninterested. And you actually will hear a lot of this in advertising when they're advertising to millennials and younger. Generally, when they're advertising to Gen X and older, you won't hear near as much vocal fry as you would, because it's more typical to hear in the younger generations, and they don't react to it as much as older generations do. So I do think we'll see this changing, but it's at the end of the sentences and it gets dropped down really low. And in the research that's been done—Gonzaga University did a huge study on this—regardless of who was evaluating the interviewees, anyone who was being interviewed that used vocal fry in their voice across the board categorically—age, race, gender didn't matter—they were rated as less credible and less desirable, less trustworthy to take a job. So it's a huge thing in career development: don't have vocal fry in your voice. That's a really big one.
And the other one that is similar—same thing, but different—is up talking the end of your sentences. And up talking the end of your sentences kind of makes you sound not credible, and then people think you don't know what you're doing, because your sentences sound like a question. A lot of times you can't hear it when you're doing it yourself, so you have to have other people listen to you. This happens a lot in networking situations when somebody is introducing themselves and they feel uncertain on the inside and that gets reflected to the outside. So a good thing to take note of.
Awesome. So as we're wrapping this up, I really want to encourage people to check out Twin Flames Studios—lots of S's in there for me to practice. But I really want to encourage people to check out all the wonderful information you've got to learn more about this subject, because I think being able to communicate and communicate with confidence is such an important first step for everyone and especially for business owners.
It sure is. We actually have a vocal leadership workout. If anyone is interested. And we don't have a landing page for it, but if you connect with me on LinkedIn, or through our website. We're happy to send you a copy.
Awesome. Well, we will make sure that we include all those links. Thank you so much for being a part of the show.
Thank you, Lorraine. This is wonderful. I appreciate you.
If you've enjoyed today's conversation and you'd like to find more resources for your business, be sure to check out the Digital Toolbox at DigitalToolbox.Club. Look for MTFW wherever you listen to podcasts. This is another episode of More Than a Few Words. Thanks for listening.
Did you know that the first audiobook was created in 1929? Today, audiobooks are a billion dollar per year industry in the US alone! If you want to discover more about the power of audiobooks, check out my guest appearance on the new episode of the VIP Access Podcast, hosted by Michelle Herschorn.(VIP Access Podcast with Michelle Herschorn, November 2021)
Melanie HerschornHi again. I'm Melanie Herschorn, the digital content creator and marketing strategist and coach for women business owners, and welcome back to another episode of VIP Access. VIP stands for Visibility, Impact, Profit, and this podcast will get you inspired and fired up about content creation and marketing yourself and your brand. Each week you'll get marketing and mindset strategies, actionable tips, and the motivation you need to land more clients, nurture your leads, and position yourself as an expert in your industry. We also go behind the scenes with powerful women in business to discuss strategies, messaging and more. My mission is to empower you to stop spinning your wheels and to make your mark with your marketing. Ready to wow your ideal client and create a community of raving fans? Let's dive into today's episode!
Hi, and welcome back to VIP Access. I'm Melanie Herschorn. Today, my guest is an award-winning and internationally-acclaimed speaker and audiobook publisher and corporate podcast producer and vocal leadership expert. Her name is Tina Dietz, and she has been featured on media outlets from ABC to Huffington Post to Forbes and more. Her first podcast The StartSomething Show was named by Inc. Magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs and Tina's company, Twin Flames Studios, amplifies the influence of brands and leaders through high ROI audiobook and podcasting solutions. And you will hear from her mic how great she is with sound. So welcome, Tina. Thanks so much for being here.
Tina DietzThanks, Melody, I appreciate that.
I just, I have a background in radio, so when I hear a good mic, I get really excited. Totally geeking out on that.
We end up being like radio voice nerds and all of that. It's like, “Oh, listen to the sound quality.”
Love it. So okay, I don't even know where to start, because I'm just so excited to have you on today. Because not only are you a podcasting expert, but really audiobooks are so important. And I think that that's something that people who have written a book don't even necessarily think about, you know, in terms of a way to get more ears or eyes on their book, and to amplify their mission and their influence in the world. And so, I would love to know some statistics about audiobooks.
Oh, statistics about audiobooks? Well, it's a funny world. When I first started working with audiobooks, they'd been around since about 1930. This is not a new format.
You mean like book on tape, okay.
Book on tape. Before that, it was book on album, you know. Or I'll date myself and talk about, you know, when I was a little kid, we had those book and album combinations where it was, “When Tinker Bell rings her little bell, it's time to turn the page.” Or we used to get books on tape out of the library, which you can still do. Mostly they're CDs sometimes have these all in one little players, which are really interesting and cool.
A lot of people don't know that the military uses a lot of those books. A lot of audiobooks are consumed by our servicemen and women overseas. It's one of the ways that they stay in touch and they don't have to use the internet. So audiobooks reach into some really remote places in the world.
But what really happened, oh, let's go back about 10 years ago, audiobooks became truly digital. Audible, which is the largest audiobook distributor in the world–they handle about 60% of the market share worldwide–combined themselves with Amazon. For whatever you think about Amazon or your opinions about Amazon as a global company, one way or another, what they have done is made things more accessible for everyday people. And when everything went digital, audiobooks went digital, the cost of production for audiobooks dropped about 50%. That has continued to be the case.
So when, back in 2009 or so and earlier, to get an audiobook produced you were talking about at least $10,000 minimum. Now an audiobook can still cost that much, if you get a lot of bells and whistles: you've got a full cast, you're recording in a New York studio, you got Tinkerbell in there full costume makeup, ringing bells. But that is generally not the case. Now you can get your audiobook fully produced by a company like ours, or another high quality studio, generally for $3,000-$5,000. And that's full production, author-narration, professional-narration, really high quality work.
It can be done remotely without our having to go into a studio. And audiobooks, you mentioned statistics, audiobooks outsell eBooks about three to one. And they're a $1 billion plus industry just in the US alone. And there are new markets opening up overseas every single day with audiobooks, so it is a growing market. It's been double digit growth year on year for the last eight years. So it is crazy pants what is happening with audiobooks and it's just a really reliable, familiar way too to get books into more ears and reach more hearts with your message. And that's what we're out to do.
I love all of that. So I want to just break it down a little bit more. Let's say somebody wrote a book a couple years ago, they launched it, it didn't do great, because they didn't have the marketing in place. And now they're starting to work on the marketing, because I always say you wrote the book, it's still published, so let's keep going and try to get some excitement about it.
Totally with you on that.
Can you also couple that with an audiobook and make that an exciting launch?
Why yes, Melanie, you can. I'll go into my commercial voice there. Yeah, no, it's a great application for an audiobook. We call it a “Second Chance Launch,” and it is something that happens frequently. As you know, in the book world, particularly with first books and authors, you get very excited. It's almost like having a child. You do all this stuff to get the book ready and to get it out there, and then by the time you get it out, you're exhausted.
Right when you need to be at your best is when you want to be taking a break. The marketing falls down or the budget isn't there, or just the persistence and the will isn't there to keep going with that particular book, because it's taken everything you've got as an author just to get the book out on the market. Launching an audiobook six months, a year longer, two years, three years down the road, is a way to revitalize that title and get it back out there again. Some folks also do a second edition with their audiobook, but more than likely, if the material really is evergreen, like many of our authors it is, then just getting the audiobook out there is enough to revitalize and get things going again.
What if you hate the sound of your own voice?
Ah, yeah, I hear that a lot. Even in a room full of speakers, if I'm on a stage and I survey a room, and I say, “Who here doesn't like the sound of their own voice?” about half the room, even in a room full of speakers and podcasters will still raise their hand. And if it's a roomful of executives or entrepreneurs, more in the general space, about 80% of people will raise their hand to say they don't like their voice. A very common thing. It's a very human thing. You have to get used to it.
There's two pathways through that. One is to basically suck it up and get used to it. Seriously, that, that's kind of the way it works. And to rely on professionals like myself, like my team, who are going to be honest with you and say, “Really, your voice is going to be fine for this book. And this is how we're going to work with you on it.” Or we'll be honest with you and say, “You know what, your voice is great for a podcast. It's great for a keynote. But it's going to be challenging to listen to you for four or five, six hours straight. And here's why.” That really just depends on the voice. But a lot of times, it's for reasons you don't expect. People have unique voices. I have this wonderful colleague who is totally Jersey–totally New Jersey–she has the most amazing, gorgeous New Jersey accent. I've been trying to talk her into doing her audiobook. She's got a great podcast, and she's like, “No, no, no, I have to have a professional do it.” I said, “Don't you dare,” because her voice is part of her brand.
Exactly what I was gonna say. It's part of her brand. And so she's taking people away from her brand, if she doesn't own that. That's part of who she is.
That's part of her voice. And her articulation is great. She's fun to listen to. Her voice is musical. All the things that are engaging about a voice. She has her accent, which she worries about, is not going to be a problem. She's very engaging to listen to.
Now, this is something even though I've worked in radio, I've been trained how to have a radio voice so to speak. I worked in classical music, which is like, “And now we are going to play Bach” and like, you really have to be like “The Sonata in B Minor played by…
The Philharmonic Orchestra. We hope you enjoy it.
Yes, exactly! Exactly. And then the people are dozing off while listening, which is fine. And news, which is also a different way to talk. But when people are gonna stand there and talk for four hours, five hours, how do they keep up momentum?
Well, you don't talk for four or five hours. That's really the key. Even professional narrators don't tend to record for longer than two hours at a shot. It is vocal fatigue across the board. Even for our really, really experienced speakers, our speakers always come in and say, “Oh, no, I do 20, you know, gigs a week.” And you know, we work with great people who do amazing things out in the world, and then they get into the audiobook process, and afterwards are like, “Oh, that was different.” Not that it was bad, it gave them a whole new skill set, because we record our authors remotely from wherever they are in the world and we fully direct them through the entire process.
Just as if you were to go into a New York studio and you were to have a director right there live in your ear, we are live in the ears of our authors, usually from their home office. So we're catching their mistakes, we're making sure that their energy is good, making sure that they're getting across the message and the intention that they want to get.
When you're reading and delivering material at the same time, it's different than a rehearsed keynote, or even in the format where we are now, which is really casual. I'm not as worried about my articulation. I'm not delivering a particular set script. You know, when you're going through an audiobook, it's a certain type of breathing. It's much slower than most people are used to speaking at and it's usually a little bit more articulated. There's a couple of things that come into play and that's what we help with. But we work with authors, you know, if their energy level can't support speaking for two hours and getting a great performance, then we do it for one hour. We have another author, we're working on her second audiobook, Jennifer Brown, she's an amazing DEI consultant. She has opera training, and tons of vocal training, and she has vocal stamina like crazy, so she can go for three or four hours. But she is an outlier, so it works across the board.
I mean, I can only imagine how exhausting that would be. You're not just talking, you're “on.” I'm one of those people that after a full day of work, I need to just shut down and have complete silence. Because when you're “on,” it just takes so much out of you. Do you find that people falter in the middle? And you're just like, “Okay, we'll come back to this tomorrow.”
It depends on the day that they're having. We do a lot of prep work with folks. We have a whole document we deliver to help people understand the mindset, to prepare to do their audiobook, and that can move into the rest of their lives as well. You know, when any of us who have been in business for a while, as you're developing your leadership, you know, you have to maintain your energy management and your energy hygiene, I'll even call it. And that has to do with you know, introversion/extroversion. Do you need to be around people? Do you need to shut down, as you mentioned? I need to go out tonight and go to an open mic comedy night to recharge myself. I'm an extrovert. That's going to charge me up. That would be a nightmare for you, probably at the end of a long workday, if you needed to recharge your energy after so many things coming at you.
Not necessarily. I'm one of those people, I could just have like five minutes, put on more makeup, and go out and feel totally returned.
We'll have to keep that in mind when we meet in person.
Oh, I can't wait for that!
But the point is that, you know, you have to manage your energy. And that's a big part of what our directors and what we listen for, watch for, and talk with our authors about because it's a very personal journey.
For me, I, even though I've worked in radio, as I said, I am a visual learner. I think it's two-thirds of the population are visual learners. But audiobooks, they don't really go against that, I find. Like I can listen to a book on a long drive and take it in, take all of it in. And so do you find that there's ever any pushback about people who are like, “Well, I'm a visual learner, so I don't need an audiobook?”
It's an interesting world, because we're so wired for storytelling. It comes into a different part of the brain entirely, so the best thing about an audiobook is the intimacy that it creates between the narrator and the listener. And there's a neurological connection, even when you're in the car. Actually, 80% of audiobooks are listened to through earbuds. That's what the research says.
You know, we're not in our cars quite as much as we used to be on long commutes, especially in the last two years. But at the same time, even if you are listening through, you know, your car speakers, or your earbuds, which are going to be the two most common areas, there's a relationship that forms you know? You almost find yourself or maybe you do find yourself, responding in the case of fiction, a character, just like you're watching TV, and you want to say, “Don't open the door!” Or if you're listening to a book on personal development or leadership development, you may find yourself pausing just to have a conversation with yourself about, “Do I really believe that? I think they are full of crap. I don't know about that.” Or, “Oh, I never thought of that!” And you kind of have to process through it. Because it is, to one extent or another, a conversation, just based on the way that we're wired neurologically. So it is an intimate experience. And that's why the quality of narration is so very important. That is what sells audiobooks. It's the quality of narration.
Okay, I love that we got to that point because it is true. It's like, if you have grainy video or pretty terrible photos that's not going to excite your audience and grow your audience, but you need to have quality sound. And what people might not realize is you can hear lights. You can hear a dog barking in the distance, and that ambient sound can throw off so much other than just the sound of your own voice reading your book. So how do you account for that in somebody's house, if they don't have their own studio?
Well, I’ll tell you a little secret: about 85% of our authors record from a walk-in closet. And this is a very common thing, even in the professional narration world. It's very cozy. The atmosphere of a walk-in closet with the clothing around you very specifically buffers the sound. And usually there's a spot where you can set up a little portable desk, or a table and a chair and your microphone and record your audiobook with a director in your ear taking care of the recording for you. And that's where a lot of voice acting happens is in those small spaces. You absolutely can create things on your desk, as well. The other thing we recommend a lot that's a really easy setup for people is to take a plastic storage box, the kind that you would put a bunch of, you know, Christmas decorations and things like that. The Rubbermaid, Sterilite kind of containers, you'd get.
A giant Tupperware
A giant Tupperware container and then you take a piece of foam that you would put on top of a bed. Bed topper. Get it at Walmart or Target for $20, put it on the inside, stand it on end, and toss your microphone in it, and then you've basically got a little portable sound booth. I actually had one of those when I was living in Costa Rica that I did some professional voice acting from and the sound quality–it was great.
That's amazing. Yeah, and you got to live in Costa Rica, which is even more amazing.
It's a whole other story.
That's great. Okay, so I love how you're bringing this to more people. You know, where I sit as somebody who's currently working on writing a book and I work with authors, sometimes we feel like audiobooks are a little bit out of reach. You figure out whether you're going to be self-publishing, working with a hybrid publisher, or going the traditional publishing route, and then you're so focused on the launch, and “Am I going to be an Amazon bestseller? I don't know” and all that stuff. And then you're like, “Okay, well, now nobody knows about it. So I need to do the marketing. But wouldn't it be great if people could listen in their AirPods to me?” It almost feels like it's, it's just high up on this pedestal that we can't reach. So I love that you're bringing it to more people. So what you're saying is, pretty much everybody should do this.
I think if it's something that you can carve out, the budget for and the time for in the great scheme of things and also survey your audience. Do they listen to audiobooks? A lot of our authors come to us because they launched their book and the number one question they got was, “When are you doing the audiobook?” I hear this over and over again. We have lots of conversations with authors every single week, and it's either, “My publisher said I needed one,” “I have to have one because I love audiobooks,” or “I've launched my book and everyone's asking me for the audiobook. How quickly can we get it done?” So those are the things that we hear on a daily basis from authors, which is good news for everybody.
That's great. So how long does it take from start to finish? Because I've heard there are delays and it can be like a really long time before Audible says, “Okay, here you go.”
Audible, particularly on the self-publishing side of Audible, there can be glitches. There can be some issues. We produce a very pristine level. We do not get rejected by Audible. We [have] t's crossed, i's dotted. But there's very, very specific technical specs that your audio files have to meet for Audible. It is not like podcasting. It is not like doing any other kind of audio. The audio that I'm recording right now for this podcast would definitely not meet Audible standards. There would be background noise, there would be a noise floor issue, all kinds of stuff. And even the, the amount of space at the beginning and the end of the file and what's included–so many technical details. But we do this every day. We meet all those technical standards, so our books go through in generally about 10-15 business days through their system, which is average. It can take up to 30 business days to make it through Audible's system, if there's no mistakes in your files. So what happens is if there are mistakes in your files it gets bounced back to you. They'll tell you what the issues are, you have to fix it, and then you got to start back at the beginning of the queue again. And that's usually where the problems come into play because somebody has worked with someone that tried to do it themselves, or they worked with someone who isn't highly experienced. The author can't tell. They can't test it. They don't have the, the technical skills to do that, and then it becomes a problem. That's where people run into the most issues. And they come to us and say, “Can you fix these files?”
“Help us!” I get that. Now, is there ever a book that doesn't make sense to become an audiobook?
There's some that do better than others. Books that tend to be at least 35,000 words tend to do better in audio. Most audio platforms like Audible, our audiobooks are sold on a membership basis. So longer books have a higher perceived value, because you get a credit every month and you can buy any audiobook. Are you going to look for an audio book that's eight hours long, or two hours long? So there becomes a perceived value issue.
Okay.
Also, audiobook pricing is different than other book pricing. Audiobooks are priced on length, which irritates a lot of authors, and I completely understand that it is an issue in the industry. Having a book that's a little bit longer–30-35,000 words, at least–gets your pricing up into a range that you're going to be much happier with. That's one issue. Another one is books that are highly technical, highly visual. They're going to need an audio edit to make an audio version of and when we evaluate books, we go over that if there tends to be more of a technical guide.
Cookbooks and poetry–it really just depends on the market that you're in. We don't work with fiction. We are a nonfiction house, but we do often get people asking us for poetry. And we don't tend to work with those because you're better off working and getting that done kind of on your own in terms of price points, and things like that, because those poetry books are shorter books. And I almost think that you're better off releasing those as an album, like almost as music, so that you can control the pricing more, rather than as an audiobook. And that's not something a lot of people think of. Go get it audio designed and really make that book juicy and worth your while to do if you're working with poetry. But technical guides, cookbooks are another one that require some changes if you're going to do an audio version. And that's more from an accessibility standpoint. Most cookbooks are not going to be listened to as a traditional audiobook, but if you're looking to reach an audience of say, folks who have visual impairment, then that's another animal. So accessibility is a whole other part of the audio industry.
There is so much that we have unpacked today. And I feel like we just scratched the surface, truly.
It’s true.
But I love that when I asked you about statistics, you rattled off a number of them. So I really appreciate that. Because so often we hear about things and it's like, “Oh, is this the next shiny object that I need to go after?” And, you know, as entrepreneurs, as authors, it's often like, “Well, what if I don't get it? If I don't do this, as I going to miss out?” And so this really sounds like something that is worth investing in because of just the sheer number of people that you can reach in a way that is going to help them better because maybe they really want to read your book, but they just don't have time to sit and read their Kindle app, or they just don't have time to sit and leaf through the pages.
Now well, and the one beautiful thing I'll tell you is that a lot of times what happens with audiobooks, particularly in nonfiction, people get a nice case of “mightas-well-itis.” They'll get the audiobook to listen to so they can make it through the material and then they'll buy the paperback, so that they can go back and make notes and the salient points. We've had it happen all the time. So, many times if you are selling your audiobook and then giving away a Kindle version that can be annotated for free, it's nice to bundle those together. Or you'll see an uptick in your paperback or hardcover sales when you release your audiobook because people are buying both versions. There's all kinds of things on the marketing side of things we don't have time to get into today. But maybe another time. There's there's lots of cool stuff.
I love it. Alright, so how can people find out more about you and Twin Flames Studios?
But a worthwhile one. Well, Tina, thank you so much for being here today.
No, thank you, Melanie. This is great. I really appreciate it!
You've written a book. Now what? If you're ready to implement a simple content marketing strategy to create buzz around your book and your brand, schedule your free Sparkles and Strategy Call with me, Melanie Herschorn. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of VIP Access. We can't let the fun end here. To find out how engaging your content is, take the content quiz at MyContentQuiz.com. Plus, you're invited to join our private Facebook group at VIPDigital.live/community where you'll get live trainings and other great tips all about digital marketing. And if you've enjoyed listening to this podcast, head over to iTunes and leave me a rating and review. This tells iTunes that you found the show helpful and they'll share it with more women business owners just like you. Thank you so much for listening.
Have you ever considered that your voice is an instrument and your thoughts and beliefs are the music you’re playing? If you want to learn how to “tune” your voice, take a listen to my guest appearance on the new episode of the More than a Few Words podcast, hosted by Lorraine Ball.(More Than a Few Words Podcast with Lorraine Ball, September 2021)
Recently, Tina joined Lorraine Ball on the More than a Few Words podcast to talk about how to use your voice to deepen your connection with others, enhance your credibility, and strengthen your leadership.
In this episode:
You'll discover the 5-7 different vocal qualities that are highly associated with credibility, trustworthiness, and perceptions of leadership
How these elements impact your career and income
Techniques to sound more professional, confident, and knowledgable
Lorraine BallHave you ever thought about what an amazing instrument your voice is? How the tone, the pitch and the tempo of your speaking voice can change how people view you? Well, that's what we're going to talk about today. Okay, here's the show. Welcome to More Than a Few Words – a marketing conversation for business owners. MTFW is part of your digital toolbox and this is your host, Lorraine Ball. I grew up in New York. I have a slightly nasal New York accent. That's part of my voice. But over the years, I've certainly worked to try to moderate that. And it is important that you do, because you can create an impression with your voice. That's what we're going to talk about today. And I couldn't think of a better person to have this conversation with than Tina Dietz. Tina's an award-winning and internationally-acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, corporate podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert. She has been featured on media outlets, including ABC, INC.com, Huffington Post, and Forbes.Tina's first podcast, The StartSomething Show, was named by INC Magazine as one of the top 35 podcasts for entrepreneurs. Her company, Twin Flames Studios, amplifies the influence of brands and leaders through high ROI audiobook and podcasting solutions. Tina, welcome to the show!
Tina DietzThanks, Lorraine. I really appreciate you having me on.
I am so excited to have you here, because this is something I've worked on a lot over the years and I think it's really important. But why don't we start with the question: What are the important qualities of someone's voice that makes them an effective leadership voice?
There’s about seven different qualities that are highly associated with someone's credibility, trustworthiness, and perception of leadership when it comes to vocal qualities. And the research around this is a little bit astounding. For example, Duke University did a study of almost 1000 CEOs, and found that on the topic of pitch alone, CEOs who had a lower pitch to their voice, had more tenure, commanded larger companies, had more perception of credibility and leadership, and made more money to the tune on average of an additional $180,000 per year.
And, you know, I know a lot of women like myself are like, “Crap!” You know, that's not necessarily a good statistic for us. But it's not that alone. The most highly, highly, highly associated vocal characteristic with credibility, leadership, trustworthiness is tempo. And this isn’t a particular tempo, it's your natural tempo. And this has to do with how we perceive somebody's breathing and their natural rhythm—the rhythm of their voice. So if you're, if you're talking a little bit too fast, and you're kind of gasping a little bit and all of that, that shows that you're maybe a little more anxious or nervous or not present. If you're talking slow, and a lot of pauses, then that may show that, again, you're not present and not confident or not sure of what you're saying. So those are two aspects of vocal qualities that really have been shown in research to make a difference. Other ones are sonority, which is the pleasantness of one's voice, articulation, as well as flow. And flow and tempo and articulation all kind of go together, as well.
And, you know, I know a lot of women like myself are like, “Crap!” You know, that's not necessarily a good statistic for us. But it's not that alone. The most highly, highly, highly associated vocal characteristic with credibility, leadership, trustworthiness is tempo. And this isn’t a particular tempo, it's your natural tempo. And this has to do with how we perceive somebody's breathing and their natural rhythm—the rhythm of their voice. So if you're, if you're talking a little bit too fast, and you're kind of gasping a little bit and all of that, that shows that you're maybe a little more anxious or nervous or not present. If you're talking slow, and a lot of pauses, then that may show that, again, you're not present and not confident or not sure of what you're saying. So those are two aspects of vocal qualities that really have been shown in research to make a difference. Other ones are sonority, which is the pleasantness of one's voice, articulation, as well as flow. And flow and tempo and articulation all kind of go together, as well.
So that's really reassuring to someone like me, because as soon as you started talking about it, I heard the deeper bass tone, having come out of a corporate environment, lots of men, I'm like, “Of course that sounds better to their ears.” And that's something that's really hard for me to change. But I can work on the flow, the pacing, some of those other qualities that make me sound more confident.
Exactly. But you know, and the good news is, is that everybody's voice is like a fingerprint. It's unique to us. So if you have an unusual voice, it doesn't mean that you have to fit into a cookie-cutter situation to be unique. You just need to be more of yourself. And the more that you work your voice out like a muscle, like you would take care of your body—it's a very complex musculature in there and your lungs and your throat and your neck and your shoulders, your face, everything combined—you know this, this beautiful orchestra happening inside of your body to get your voice out into the world. If you pay attention to it and work it out, it'll do wonderful things for you.
As a business owner, I'm thinking, “Okay, I'm not going to be doing big presentations, I'm not going to be standing in front of a room of 100 people. Does my voice really matter?”
Yes, yes, it does. It absolutely does. Because business is all about relationships. And every relationship you form, whether it's with a prospective client, it's with colleagues, it's at a networking group, it's on a phone call, it doesn't matter, you bring your voice with you everywhere you go. And you owe it to yourself, and you owe it to the growth of your business, your company, to bring your voice with you and to have it be a representation of who you are as a leader, and who you are as a brand.
Do you think that you have a different voice when you're at home or at work? Is it one voice? Or does it change based on the situation? And those are obviously the two extremes, but does your voice change in different situations?
Yeah, yeah, I think it does. Because we have a range, right? Just like you have a vocal range low to high, we also have a range of expression. And sometimes the expression that you use in business is not necessarily going to be the same expression you use with your kids.
That being said, I think most people draw two strong boundaries between what's in business, and what's really in your heart. And the more integrated we become from the inside and the outside, the more effective we become as leaders. So vocal leadership isn't really all about the external voice, it's about the dance between your internal voice and your external voice. It's analogous to a virtuoso musician. So, if you imagine your external voice is the instrument you're playing, and your internal voice—your thoughts, your beliefs, your message, all the things that make you who you are—that's the music that you're playing. So if you can learn how to create the arrangement of the music that you're playing, and pay attention to the external instrument, that's when you become a virtuoso.
Wow, I love the comparison between your voice and an instrument, because it really, to me, it makes a lot of sense. I can see that whole tuning and being pleasant to the ear. And even jazz sometimes is appealing to a certain audience. So I like that analogy, because it can be… your voice needs to fit the situation, it also needs to be kind of true to who you are. Are there things that we do with our voice that really work against us? That send the wrong message?
We could do it pretty easily. There's two in particular that in a business setting, and we're talking specifically about leadership and credibility, that are credibility killers. One is vocal fry. Now, if you don't know what vocal fry is, you can think about the Kardashians. So it basically makes you sound uninterested. And you actually will hear a lot of this in advertising when they're advertising to millennials and younger. Generally, when they're advertising to Gen X and older, you won't hear near as much vocal fry as you would, because it's more typical to hear in the younger generations, and they don't react to it as much as older generations do. So I do think we'll see this changing, but it's at the end of the sentences and it gets dropped down really low. And in the research that's been done—Gonzaga University did a huge study on this—regardless of who was evaluating the interviewees, anyone who was being interviewed that used vocal fry in their voice across the board categorically—age, race, gender didn't matter—they were rated as less credible and less desirable, less trustworthy to take a job. So it's a huge thing in career development: don't have vocal fry in your voice. That's a really big one.
And the other one that is similar—same thing, but different—is up talking the end of your sentences. And up talking the end of your sentences kind of makes you sound not credible, and then people think you don't know what you're doing, because your sentences sound like a question. A lot of times you can't hear it when you're doing it yourself, so you have to have other people listen to you. This happens a lot in networking situations when somebody is introducing themselves and they feel uncertain on the inside and that gets reflected to the outside. So a good thing to take note of.
Awesome. So as we're wrapping this up, I really want to encourage people to check out Twin Flames Studios—lots of S's in there for me to practice. But I really want to encourage people to check out all the wonderful information you've got to learn more about this subject, because I think being able to communicate and communicate with confidence is such an important first step for everyone and especially for business owners.
It sure is. We actually have a vocal leadership workout. If anyone is interested. And we don't have a landing page for it, but if you connect with me on LinkedIn, or through our website. We're happy to send you a copy.
Awesome. Well, we will make sure that we include all those links. Thank you so much for being a part of the show.
Thank you, Lorraine. This is wonderful. I appreciate you.
If you've enjoyed today's conversation and you'd like to find more resources for your business, be sure to check out the Digital Toolbox at DigitalToolbox.Club. Look for MTFW wherever you listen to podcasts. This is another episode of More Than a Few Words. Thanks for listening.
Not sure if an audiobook is the right investment for you and your brand? Listen to my guest appearance on The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson and learn more!
Tina talks to Becky Robinson about the benefits and process of investing in an audiobook.
In this episode:
If Tina’s noticed a trend of people buying audiobooks vs. other formats
Reasons an author would consider investing in an audiobook
Why an author might choose to narrate their own book (author narrated vs. professionally narrated)
The best time for an author to release their audiobook
What the process looks like and the average length of an audiobook
The range of investment that an author should expect if they want to create an audiobook
—
Listen to the podcast here:
Welcome to Season 2 of The Book Marketing Action Podcast with Becky Robinson, where we give you information that you can immediately implement to increase your influence and market your books more successfully. In this episode, we are joined by Tina Dietz—CEO and co-founder of Twin Flames Studios, award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and influence marketing expert.
ABOUT TINA
Becky: I am so thrilled today to be interviewing Tina Dietz. Tina is a friend I made, actually, as a result of this podcast. A previous guest, Jenn T. Grace, introduced us, and I’m so glad she did, because I’ve already learned so much from you, Tina. So before we dive in, I hope you’ll take a moment and tell our listeners about your work in the world.
Tina: Well, my company Twin Flames Studios focuses on getting more great voices out to the world. So really the mission behind the company is that audiobooks and podcasts are some of the lowest hanging fruit for people to start to change their lives. So particularly with audiobooks, and certainly with podcasts, they tend to be low cost or free. They’re available in multiple countries, a lot of them can be in multiple languages, and their stories are what keep us all connected as human beings. So the more that we can help leaders, subject matter experts, and people who have lived extraordinary lives in the nonfiction space, which is our specialty, tell their stories and get it out to the world, the more we can make a difference and leave our own legacy, as well as help with the legacies of all these authors that we work with. So what we’re talking about today is mostly our audiobook division, which is strictly nonfiction audiobooks. And we do full, done-for-you production, publishing, and distribution, both for professional narration as well as author narration, which is something we’re known for.
HAVE YOU NOTICED A TREND OF PEOPLE BUYING AUDIOBOOKS VS. OTHER FORMATS?
Becky: Tina, that’s really intriguing and I look forward to hearing more about that author voice narration. But let’s talk for a moment, first, about audiobooks as a genre. I’m curious to see what you’ve noticed about the trend of people buying audiobooks rather than other formats.
Tina: It’s been an interesting art because audiobooks are certainly not new. The first audiobook was produced during the Great Depression, and I believe it was a Christmas story. They’ve always been around. Those of us who are a little bit older will remember books on tape and getting them out at the library, things like that. But up until the shift in the market about six, eight years ago, where audiobooks became digital, the production of audiobooks was generally relegated to traditional publishing. It was very expensive to do and very expensive to distribute, because everything was in a hardcopy, and first on tape, well, first an album, then on tape, and God forbid, on 8-track, and then ultimately on CDs. So when everything went digital, and Amazon and Audible became the same company, when voice acting and narrators became available more online, we had the rise of the gig economy, all of these things kind of created a perfect storm for the rise and the renaissance of the audiobook. So audiobooks have risen in sales year upon year, in double digits for the last eight years. And some of those years, it’s been a 20% to even 25% rise in the sales of audiobooks. So it’s a billion dollar industry in the US alone, and the accessibility of it is largely what makes them so so so popular.
WHAT ARE SOME REASONS AN AUTHOR WOULD CONSIDER INVESTING IN AN AUDIOBOOK?
Becky: Well, as the wife of a man who only consumes books via audio, I know that there are many people who really are drawn in a big way to that ease of being able to listen while you drive, or listen while you get something else done. And I think in a way, you already answered this question, Tina, but I’m gonna ask it anyway. What are some reasons an author would consider investing in an audiobook?
Tina: Well, you definitely have to look at what your purpose is, and I’m really glad you asked this question. So on the nonfiction side of the equation—fiction is going to have a different answer, and I can touch on it if you’d like—but on the nonfiction side of things, an author wants to look at doing an audiobook to access a wider audience, first of all. A lot of executives, C-suite folks, people who are decision makers or at high levels in their career, often listen to audio, or listen to audio and buy a copy of the book so that they can switch formats because they can multitask, and also because audiobooks you can listen to at faster speeds. So I know lots of people, including myself, who might put an audiobook up to one and a half time speed, in order to be able to consume the information and get what they need, and then maybe have a hard copy of the book to reference back or make notes in as they go, using it as a learning tool. And they use it to keep your brain juicy as you go. So having an audiobook does open up those markets. An audiobook is also a marketing tool and it is an evergreen marketing tool, just like your book is. So using snippets of your book, in audiograms, in book trailers, in different parts of your material, or even potentially as material to create a course or modules in the backend membership site that you might have, you can use your audiobook in all of these different ways as an asset, not just distributed on Audible.
WHY MIGHT AN AUTHOR CHOOSE TO NARRATE THEIR OWN BOOK?
Becky: So Tina, this might be a good time to talk about this idea of an author narrated audiobook. Why might an author choose to narrate their own book?
Tina: Well, speaking as an entrepreneur myself, I would say that we all have egos, so that’s really the first truth. You have to know that it feels, if you’ve gone through all of the process of writing a book that is part of your soul on paper, and it is in your voice and of course, you want to have the experience. And I hear this all the time, “I’m the only person that could narrate this book.” Now, that’s not actually true, but an author may actually feel very strongly about that. We should probably also, if we have time, talk about why an author wouldn’t narrate their own book, because most of our authors come to us assuming that they are going to narrate their own book. But for those who do want to have that, if you are going after speaking gigs, if you want to have your voice known in a particular industry, or if your voice is already highly associated with your work, you have a popular podcast, you’re a TED speaker, so on and so forth, there may be some congruency to having your voice on the book. At least in part, not every author narrates their entire audio book, sometimes we do what I lovingly call a Tony Robbins sandwich, which is a hybrid version of the book where the author introduces the material, does the introduction or the first chapter, and then kind of hands it off to a professional narrator who shares similar vocal qualities as the author, and certainly has similar energy as the author, and then the author comes back at the end of the book to wrap things up. Sometimes there’s a happy middle ground between the two, given how busy most of our authors are.
WHAT ARE OTHER REASONS AN AUTHOR MAY NOT CHOOSE TO NARRATE THEIR OWN AUDIOBOOK?
Becky: Well, that’s an amazing idea. And so in addition to being maybe too busy to narrate your own audiobook, Tina, what are some other reasons an author may not choose to narrate their own audiobook?
Tina: Well, not every expert has, first of all, a great voice. Not every expert has the desire to do it. That has a lot to do with it, because it feels like a slog behind the microphone. Because narrating an audiobook is no joke. It takes time. It takes discipline. We fully produce and direct our authors through the process. We remote into their home offices, make sure that we get great sound quality, all kinds of great stuff to support them. But ultimately, if you aren’t feeling it, you’re not going to have a good audiobook. And so not everybody is a verbal communicator. They might be really strong in writing, but not really enjoy a lot of speaking, particularly in long form narration like an audiobook requires. So there’s a really important cocktail of desire, skill, experience, and time that go into whether we determine it’s a best path forward for an author to have their own voice on the book, versus a professional narrator on the book. And not for nothing, but some authors may actually have either physical or other issues happening, that it’s not a good fit for them, depending on what they have going on in their lives or their abilities.
WHEN IS THE BEST TIME FOR AN AUTHOR TO RELEASE THEIR AUDIOBOOK?
Becky: That’s really helpful. So when do you find is the best time for an author to release their audiobook?
Tina: We tend to have authors come to us in one of two areas, or one or two timeframes, I should say. One is that they’re getting ready to launch a new book. And if it’s an author narrated book and they’re planning on doing preorders for their book, there are some technical caveats to when you can actually get your audiobook launched, particularly on Audible. Audible is the 500 pound gorilla in the room when it comes to audiobook distribution. They do own about 60% of the market share in audiobook sales. So not being on Audible is going to be a problem for you if you’re not there. So they have some rules about when you can get your audiobook out. But generally we can get pretty close, with an author narrated audiobook, to your launch date. And that’s kind of one scenario, you’re launching a new book and you end up putting the audiobook out, either at the same time as the other versions of it, or it’s a staggered launch anytime generally, within the first six months of the launch, there’s a lot of advantages to doing it that way, because it extends the life of the launch and you can get the same audience excited about a new format, or reach people that you haven’t reached before. So it’s a nice marketing technique to stagger your audiobook launch after the hardcover or ebook versions of the book that might come out first.
The other version of audiobook launches comes into play when we have a book that could use a second life. Many authors come to us and they say, “I wish I could relaunch my book, knowing what I know now.” They may have had a difficult relationship with their original publisher, or they didn’t have the chops that they have now in marketing. So an audiobook is a way to give your book a second chance, and basically have a second launch, and that’s really valuable as well. Some folks even want to do a second edition of their book or add new material to it, so that comes into play as well.
Becky: That’s all really great advice and aligns to what I’ve coached authors to do. So I’m glad that we’re on the same page. It’s encouraging to hear.
WHAT DOES THE PROCESS LOOK LIKE?
Becky: Tina, I’d love for you to explain to our listeners about the steps that you take, as you coach authors through this process. Obviously, you mentioned that it’s done for you. So you’re creating the audiobook for and with them. Tell me about those steps and about the timelines, so that if our listeners are considering investing in an audiobook, they know what to expect.
Tina: Yeah, let me talk about timelines first. So generally, we’re looking at about 90 days in either case, whether it’s author narrated, or professionally narrated. Some of this highly depends on the availability of the author, certainly in the case of the author narrated, but also in the case of professionally narrated, because there are key times that the author is needed to make choices. So for example, in the professionally narrated case, we have an audition process that is very robust, and we get about 150 auditions, per book, on average. We curate all of those auditions, first for sound and goodness of fit, and also the energy. Can we actually believe that this narrator is delivering this material? All of that gets done on the first round.
The second round is professional vetting. Can they meet the timeline? Can they meet the budget? How are they to work with? So we do all of that, before we present our authors with a list. Generally, we have about eight to twelve choices of our top picks, with their auditions in our notes on why we think they’re great. But we need the author to have a little time to listen through those things, and make a choice. So depending on how busy the author is, we can throw timelines off based on how much time they take, or God forbid, if they decide to make decisions by committee, which could happen. But the author is one of the couple of key things that we do that are important, because the author has creative choices, we’re not taking over the process like a traditional publisher would. We also don’t take any rights or royalties. So we keep our authors involved in the creative process, one way or another.
So in the case of professional narration, once we have a narrator selected, and we’ve produced kind of the first 15 minutes or so with the book, and everybody’s on board with the tone and the pacing, the characterization that the narrator is using, the process goes quite quickly. And we, of course, handle all of this, not just the narration and the direction, but the proofing, the editing, the mastering, and after the author has had a chance to sign off on everything and it’s all good to go, it goes into a quality control process. Quality control on Audible can take up to 30 business days, so that’s all part of that 90 day period that I’m talking about.
Similarly, on the author narrated side of things, I mentioned before we do sound checks, we do all of that. And then it’s a matter of scheduling the recording times, and you cannot bang out an audio book in a day. Most professional narrators don’t record for longer than two to three hours a day. So a non professional—like even a professional speaker—very, very rarely do we run into authors who can narrate for longer than two hours at a time. More likely it’s 90 minutes without losing gas, without their energy dropping into their feet, and that’s okay. But you do have to account for that in the schedule.
WHAT IS THE AVERAGE LENGTH OF AN AUDIOBOOK?
Becky: What would be the average length of an audiobook, in this nonfiction kind of thought leadership experts space?
Tina: A lot of our books are right around the 30,000 to 50,000 word mark. When you get into really short books, 20,000 words or less, they don’t tend to do as well in sales for audiobooks. There are some exceptions, of course, simply because audiobooks are generally sold on a membership basis. So when you are an audiobook member of Audible, and you have a credit that you can use on an audiobook that is an hour and a half or two hours long, versus eight or 10 hours long, the perceived value is higher on the longer book. Now, that’s not to say that you shouldn’t do an audiobook version of a shorter book, but we might tweak the distribution strategy, and talk with you further about how that audio is going to be used to the best advantage.
Becky: Wow, I am learning so much today! I am sure our listeners are as well.
WHAT’S THE RANGE OF INVESTMENT THAT AN AUTHOR SHOULD EXPECT IF THEY WANT TO CREATE AN AUDIOBOOK?
Becky: So my final question as it relates to audiobooks, Tina, is what’s the range of investment that an author should expect if they want to create an audiobook with the type of support that your organization provides?
Tina: Sure, absolutely. I think that for most books, on average, we look at somewhere in the $3,000 to $5,000 range. Sometimes less for shorter books. Sometimes more if somebody wants multiple narrators and they want music added. We’ve had a few specialty books that we’ve done that have even incorporated the audio from video clips and things like that, that have happened from major events, and whatnot. The average kind of cost of an audiobook with everything included, including the distribution, is definitely going to be in that three to five range.
Becky: I appreciate that transparency, because I think it really sets people up to consider whether this is an investment that they’re prepared to make.
ACTION STEPS
Becky: So, Tina, our listeners are used to us always giving them action steps at the end of every podcast, because this is the book marketing action podcast. I know you have a couple of action steps that you’d like people to take today.
Tina: Oh, yeah, for sure.
Read your book out loud. The first thing is, have you ever read your book out loud? Take a couple of chapters of your book and just try reading it out loud. See how it feels. See how you like the material. Most of our authors, when they read their book out loud, which we have them do before they step into any kind of recording situation, they have a series of reactions to their own work. We all do. You also have a series of reactions to the sound of your own voice, and that’s okay too. But try it on, try it out and see what that’s like for you. If you’re in the process of writing a book, definitely read the book out loud before you finalize your editing, you will find all kinds of things there to make the book more narrative, maybe to shorten up sentences a little bit. And you’ll even catch errors that you didn’t catch when you were just doing it visually. So that’s really the first thing go read your book out loud.
Download the step-by-step guide. The second thing is, is that a lot of the things that I talked about today, we’ve put into a guide. And we also have frequently asked questions and all kinds of good information, best practices, and a full kind of step-by-step guide on how to get your audiobook done. And you can find that at Launchyouraudiobook.com.
RESOURCES
Learn more about Tina Dietz’s company, Twin Flames Studios, here.
If you want to learn more about how successful authors leverage their books, download Tina’s free guide here.
If you found value in today’s episode, we hope you’ll take a moment to share it with someone else who might benefit from it. If you have any questions or topics you’d like us to cover, please email Becky Robinson here.
Yes, thank you for joining us.So please tell us a story of how Twin Flames Studios came to be.
Well, Twin Flames Studios is a high ROI Influence and Marketing company where we use audio to amplify the voices and messages of trusted leaders and companies all over the world. It's really our mission to help these people help these organizations get their word out to a larger audience in the very intimate form of audio, whether that is nonfiction audiobook publishing, or that is podcasting strategically for your business.
And it's important that we note that in these times of great change, these powerful voices are needed now more than ever.
My background, and my story, is a little bit more like the twisty journey of a lot of entrepreneurs.I grew up as an entrepreneur—my parents’ business—the super sexy world of wood burning stoves and fireplaces.
Wow.
Yeah, very exciting. But I never wanted to have my own business because I didn't want to be tied down to a brick and mortar like my parents were. And I'm an only child, so that business was my annoying younger sibling when I was growing up.
Right, the baby.
The baby, yeah.
So, I became a therapist, and I tried to be conventional. And that didn't work out so well for me—
Okay—
As many entrepreneurs—
The entrepreneurial spirit was still—
That’s right, within the blood.
Yes.
So, after working in higher education, starting a nonprofit, and also building a family—another family business with my father, the Nayada Institute of Massage—I stepped off into a full-time business coaching practice. And through the jigs and the reels over the years grew that practice.
It was wonderful, had young children at the time, we lived a mobile lifestyle, we sold our stuff moved to Costa Rica. And at one point because I was… had my own, like personal expression—I grew up a little bit of a theater kid—drama kid—and was looking for some outlets, creative outlets—I became a voice actor as a paid hobby. And through that process, and learning the audiobook industry as a narrator—I was exploring that—I had this epiphany “Well, wait a minute, I'm coaching all these people from all over the world who owned businesses—20 different industries, eight different countries—why aren't these folks who are publishing their own books doing bestseller campaigns? Why aren't they doing audiobooks?”
And it was that curiosity that led me down the rabbit hole first for audiobooks—I already had my own podcast at the time—had fallen in love with that world. And that is what led to developing this niche in podcasting and audiobooks for business owners, thought leaders and companies.
And so what would you say the difference is versus something that's on paper, versus really hearing a tone? What does that do for an audience to really hear a voice?
Well, you know, a couple of years ago, I had the pleasure and privilege of being the lead interviewer on a documentary about podcasting called The Messengers, you can find it I think it's on Amazon Prime. And that was developed by Chris Krimitsos and his team at the Podfest Multimedia Expo. And that was, that organization was younger at the time and wanted to really explore what is this industry of podcasting from an independent podcaster’s point of view, rather than monopoly, or NPR or the, you know, the big professional gigs.
So, I interviewed about 40, different podcasters from all different walks of life, different countries, different places, most of them didn't know each other. And the word that came up in every single interview independently was the word intimacy. Podcasting being this intimate format, you know, directly into your ears—becoming a voice in somebody's head, it's such a privilege. And that and then also the ability to do active storytelling when we're so wired to tell stories as human beings. So that's, you know, the audio format has a lot of advantages in that way. And it's also the most accessible form of media, you know, you can listen—as I'm assuming some people are right now listening to this podcast—when you can't read, you can listen when you can't watch. So, you can take it anywhere.
And as a coaching also involved in telling… teaching people how to speak as well as I'm sure some people aren't necessarily natural storytellers. Is that something you sometimes have to teach certain clients as well?
Yeah, actually, the body of work that I've been developing over time and will continue to do so is around what I call Vocal Leadership. And that's really about the instrument that your external voice is and learning how to tune that and play it beautifully to another level. And also, the internal voices that we have, which is really… if the external voice is the instrument, then the internal voice is the music, the sheet music that we're playing.
So those two things really need to be congruent in order to have a presence, and in order to move people the way we want to move them through stories. And then, of course, there's also the actual storytelling, and microphone techniques, and all of that good stuff as well.
The little details.
Yeah, exactly.So, our hosts… One of the things we do as a company as we get our podcast hosts together into a mastermind about quarterly, to connect them with each other, and also to provide additional support and training.
Okay
And that's, in addition to meeting with them one-on-one to help them with the strategy, you know, as their podcast is, you know, being aired.
Okay, and so that kind of goes to my next question—you mentioned Voice Leadership, and then how you can kind of take an extra step to really connect with the audience. So then, what does being a conscious business leader mean to you?
I think that the word conscious has… has not become overplayed, but it's important to take a step back and look at “Well, what does that really mean?” I'm so glad you asked the question.
And being conscious in your business means taking not just your business into account, it's taking the impact that you're making, or that you can make into account. And that has to do not just with the people that you serve, but it also has to do with how your business is set up. How the impact… How it impacts the people that work inside the company? Is it a win for them? Is it a good culture? Is it healthy? Is it helping people develop their dreams and goals? And is it good also for the people who are, you know, the founders? So, sometimes it's really easy as a C suite or business owner to get on this hamster wheel where you will—you burn out, right?
So, you really need to bring a conscious view… You know, taking these things into consideration. What are the deeper values that you have? And how do those infuse everything that you're doing, everything that you're saying, and the practices that you have? You know, unfortunately, being in the entrepreneur world, speaking world, as long as I have, sometimes you run into people who preach these incredible positive messages from the stage, but then don't treat people well behind the curtain. And being conscious means that you're congruent.
And that also comes back around to the—you know—the vocal leadership, or embodied leadership that we all strive to develop. When you are conscious to make sure that, you know, you're reflecting and having the… your internal conversations match what's coming out of your face.
Wow, that's the first time I've heard that sort of response as far as how it can be one way for the show, but behind the scenes things aren't matching, and how it needs to.So, would you say then, in order for things to be congruent, it has to start with the internal of the founder, of the person who's kind of setting the culture from the beginning?
Yeah, I would completely agree with that. You set the tone. The buck stops here, as the old saying goes.
And I think one of the important things about being a leader is being open enough to seek the coaching on that or to seek the feedback on that, not just from other experts, but also from your team, also from the people around you, from your, from your clients. And it can really take something to hear feedback about that. I remember years ago—I'll go in all the way back to my 20s—I used to get this piece of feedback all the time, because I'm a pretty intense person, you know, I—
I understand, yes.
There's this intensity, and there's this fervor, and there's this passion. And it's… they would say, “Well, could you tone it down a little bit?” Or “Could you soften your edges?” And—oh, my god—that was so offensive, that pissed me off 18 different ways. Because I thought, I just thought they meant that they wanted it, “You go be quiet, put in a box, and smile and do what you're told.” And sometimes that was the case. But what I came to understand later, is that it wasn't really about me, it was about them being intimidated by me. But where I can be kind, and I can be compassionate is learning how to read the room.
Right
And learning how to not, you know, quell or shut off my integrity or my passion, but to manage it in order to express it in a way that people can really receive. Because that's what's important to me, can you receive the message that I'm giving?
Right, right. I guess that’s one of the hardest lessons to learn—different people receive things in different ways.
Right.
I’m just passionate, I just want you to do great, I want us to do great. And just certain ways… it doesn't sit with people like that. And it's learning how to do that extra communication.
Yeah, I remember one of the most important conversations I ever had was in a leadership course really kind of intense one year-long course. And one of my fellow, very successful executive woman, she said—I was getting all ramped up about something—she said, “Why is this so important to you?” I said, “Well, the question is, why isn't it important to you?” And we had a really fascinating discussion about how different people have different capacities to feel. And certain ones of us are very highly sensitive and other people are not. And just, it really opened my eyes, because I really kind of just thought that everybody was like me, and turns out, nope—
No—
Not so much.
I had to make those adjustments. And so, where do you see your business going then in the next three to five years? And I'm sure… We're seeing that people are doing more audio both receiving and giving, than actual reading, and literature, and everything. So where do you see your business going?
Well, it's been a… we've doubled the company four years in a row, time on time. And I don't expect that that will happen forever, certainly—
But it's nice.
It's great so far. And so, we're in a big scaling phase right now. And also, in a position, you know, earlier, in 2020, when the pandemic really was affecting a lot of our colleagues, our clients, our customers, former clients—things like that—I was grateful that we were in a position because we've always been a fully mobile company. And of course, audio is much easier to do remote—that we offered, you know, a lot of—a complement just for free. We went out and said, “What… how can we help?” and offered teleclasses, and consultations, and things like that, to help different companies make use of this online space, make use of audio, both for internal communications, and external communications and marketing. And so, we've had… 2020 was really a banner year for us.
And going into 2021 and beyond we're just looking to really serve more companies to have more intimate relationships with their current clients, with their future clients, with their colleagues, and even for their internal culture, because podcasting in particular, can help with all of that. And then on the author side of things, of course, a lot of people with time that they had, are finishing their books and getting things out on audio—and you know, audiobooks, outsell eBooks three to one across genres. So, it's… It's a beautiful thing to be able to help people get their voice out like that.
Yeah, absolutely, so you're kind of in a nice little sweet spot where it's like you get to of course, help people build their businesses and kind of make some pivots, but of course, it helps your business as well having more clients.
Exactly. You know, it's weird to say it felt like being in the right place at the right time after 20 years. So, worth the wait, worth the wait.
Absolutely. So, you have a few services offered through your website, such as links to your podcast and audiobooks. Tell us about any other services that you might offer, your business offers?
Well, you know, the done-for-you audiobook side of things, one of our… the key things that we're able to do with folks, to the best of my knowledge, we're the only audiobook house—and we do specialize in nonfiction exclusively—who is able to remote into wherever an author is in the world and record their audio book with them, live, full direction, from their home studio or office without them having to go into a studio.
And we can coach them on very easily getting good sound having a high-quality audiobook, and it keeps the cost down. And it's also very comforting to be in your own space while you're do that. So… And we also can do really fun things like insert music, and even other audio clips, and things like that. We're producing a memoir for a family right now on the Holocaust. And there are some fascinating video clips that we're converting to audio that we're going to be inserting in the narrative to help tell the story. So, there's some really cool stuff we do on that side.
Same thing with podcasting. Podcasting is so creative and such a beautiful format to get your message out there. So, whether it is internal podcasting—like we do with enterprise level companies—, external podcasting—that we do with companies and organizations to help get the word out about who they are, what they do and develop their influence—, or the vocal leadership—that I do one-on-one, to help people become more effective in the messages that they have. We're just happy to do all of it—
Yeah, sounds like, yeah, cover a lot of different things that a lot of different people could use especially right now with how things have changed. And so, for anyone who's interested in using any of those services or just even wants to connect with you, where are the best places, and platforms to go to?
You can definitely find me on any social media platform. We have a social media following about 280,000 so we're out there and so you can find me, Tina Dietz. You can also look up Twin Flames Studios, although my name is probably going to get you a better result there on LinkedIn, certainly Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. And you can also just come over to us at TwinFlamesStudios—it's a lot of ss—.com, and come and hang out with us find out some more information, and grab a cup of coffee.
Love it. I love coffee, and I'm sure others do too and would love to share with you.
Me too.
Perfect.
Tina Dietz, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure learning about you and your company today.
Well, it's been a pleasure being here. Thanks so much, Gabby.
Learn more about the intimacy and power of our voice,
Tina talks with Meaghan Lamm about how we can feel our feelings, get curious about our thoughts, and shamelessly self-promote.
In this episode:
The number one block preventing people from shamelessly promoting themselves
Tina’s top tips on how to use your fear to propel you instead of hold you back
Mindset techniques to shamelessly self-promote yourself and your business
—
Listen to the podcast here:
The Secret To Shameless Self-Promotion with Tina Dietz
I’m super excited to have you here. I’ve wanted to have you on the podcast for many months and I’m excited to talk about shameless self-promotion. I think this is the topic that a lot of women in particular struggle with or even self-promotion in general.
Before we dive into that, tell us who you are and what you do on the internet.
I own a company called Twin Flames Studios, and after many years of building businesses internationally in more than 20 different industries, I now specialize in the world of audio to help people get their messages out into the world. We produce and develop podcasts. We work with thought leaders and subject matter experts to get their audio books produced and out into the world, as well. On a personal level, I work with folks on vocal leadership, which is a whole other body of work.
Your team produced about the first two-dozen episodes of this podcast. I don’t think this podcast would exist without you. If I hadn’t hired you for the added accountability, I don’t know that this podcast would have happened.I remember in the very beginning, you sent me some really great exercises and articles to improve my vocal leadership. There were so many things I learned, like how the inflection in your voice can convey a certain emotion, whether you’re intending to do it that way or not, which I found fascinating.
Yes, we had that whole conversation about uptalk where we subconsciously raise the inflection of our voice at the end of our sentences like it’s a question when we mean to make it a statement. And then that makes us sound like we don’t know what the hell we’re talking about.
It also points out things within yourself that you didn’t realize were there because it’s a very subconscious thing. You’re not consciously ending all of your statements as a question because you lack confidence in that area. It’s very subconscious. Once I realized I was doing it, it was interesting to note which moments it popped up in my speech. Then I started to work on that with my mindset coach.
That’s perfect.
When you’re working with your vocal leadership clients and you get into the issue of shameless self-promotion, what would you say is the number one block that people have when it comes to promoting themselves shamelessly?
I would say the number one thing is that people don’t want to piss anyone off with what they’re saying. They don’t want to upset anyone. Not a single one of us enjoys looking stupid or being embarrassed. That’s the shame part and that’s why Brené Brown says shame is a master emotion. Shame is really what’s underneath. I don’t want people to be mad at me. I don’t want to upset anyone. I don’t want to rock the boat. I don’t want to look bad. I don’t want to be embarrassed. All of those and more. It really comes down to that being the core of what stops us from stepping out and speaking our truth.
Absolutely. To get to the point of starting this podcast, it was a big vulnerability moment for me. I had to put myself out there, knowing how feminists and women with strong opinions are often treated on the internet. Creating this podcast and putting it out into the world, with my opinions, was a big vulnerability moment for me.
I haven’t run into many haters yet, but there was a lot of mental work that went into gearing up for this shameless self-promotion, as we’re calling it, because I knew that even though as many supporters as I have, there is also a flip side to that. The people who troll you, especially in today’s political climate, where it gets nasty on the internet.
What are your top tips on sitting with that vulnerability and fear, the fear of looking stupid or like you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about? What are your tips on sitting with those emotions and letting them propel you rather than stop you?
Most of us have a tendency to delay the intensity of what we feel. We’re trained to control our emotions and put a clamp on them. What we’re not trained to do is to allow ourselves to have the capacity to be with strong emotions and let them move through us. That is a learned practice.
It is an emotional, psychological, energetic practice of allowing yourself to feel whatever it is that you’re feeling. When you’re first starting to do this, you’re going to notice all the thoughts attached to it. The questions, decisions, and things that you say about yourself and the world. And it’s not pretty. You have to learn to become an observer of your own thought and not dissociate yourself.
Start to gain some objectivity where you observe the feelings or thoughts that you’re having like a movie. If you can identify it, you can start to move things in different directions. If you feel like you’re at a point where you just can’t move past it or something that is unsayable or unendurable, start to identify the component parts of that feeling. Identify the physical sensation, the things that you say to yourself, the things that you say about the world, and so on. Break that down into its component parts and you start to be able to make choices. And choices give you power.
‘Choices’ was my word of the year for 2020. This year, I had to make a lot of choices and to feel my feelings rather than numb them out so that I could get to a place where I could do things while feeling fear. Fear is typically at the core of everything we’re avoiding doing. If you sit with it long enough, you’re going to realize there’s an underlying fear for not wanting to do whatever you’re avoiding.
So you have to sit with it. It doesn’t go away. It is a conditioned, biological response to keep you safe. Fear used to keep you safe from saber-toothed tigers, and now it keeps you safe from stress or bad chicken.
And trolls on the internet.
And trolls on the internet. The fear doesn’t go away. You just learn how to acknowledge the fear and do the scary thing anyway. I think that’s the place that you have to get to for authentic, shameless self-promotion. To authentically and shamelessly do what you have decided is your mission here on this earth in this lifetime, you have to get to a point where you’re not numbing out the emotions that are uncomfortable.
You’re feeling them and you’re acknowledging them. You’re not telling yourself you’re wrong for feeling them because you’re a human being and you experience the whole range of human emotions. Then, you go out and do the thing anyway.
When I first started my journey through mindset work in 2016, I had never heard the phrase before. No one asked me, how does that make you feel? How does this frustrating situation make you feel? My family did not talk about uncomfortable things. If we had uncomfortable things going on, we handled it very poorly on our own and when we came back together, we pretended like nothing happened.
As a result, I can’t say I grew up to be a super well-adjusted human being who is able to freely express her emotions. But working through that has most definitely been a journey for me, because I had to learn, often painfully, how to stop numbing my feelings by overworking. It’s really common in hustle culture to numb oneself by scrolling on social media or binging on Netflix.
Instead of asking you if you’re still watching, Netflix should have an emotional setting that asks if you are numbing your feelings or actually watching something.
Yes, exactly! I had such a difficult time recognizing when I was feeling anything, because I had numbed it for so long that I just had to name the physical sensations that were happening in my body.
That was how I found out that being mad makes my fingers tingle. It was so fascinating to me to learn how to do that. For a long time, I felt really dumb because I was 30 and I didn’t know what my feelings felt like. I think that happens to a lot of people and I’m hoping that this episode really normalizes that because a lot of us are not taught how to process our emotions. Human beings are designed not to be uncomfortable.
Absolutely. When I’m working with executives and we’re talking about vocal leadership and communication, we talk about how your internal landscape changes your external landscape. If your physical voice is the instrument that you’re playing, like an oboe or violin, then your internal conversation, beliefs, feelings and the things that you say are the music that you’re playing. You’ve written that music. In order to become a virtuoso and be able to play the music that you want to play with your voice and your message, you have to look at the music that you’re playing.
Where are you missing a verse or skipping over things? Where is the tempo off? The voice is such a great indicator of our internal music where we might have a stanza or two that are not in sync with the rest of the composition. One of the quick exercises we can do around embodiment is to bring up all of the physical sensations of what it feels like to be the best version of yourself. We can use this to train our bodies to actually feel better when we are experiencing things that we don’t love feeling. We can do it on the other side as well and train ourselves to feel the way we want to feel because neurologically, the brain doesn’t know the difference between fantasy and reality. It’s a programming issue.
Brains are fascinating. This is why people get sucked into cults.
Absolutely. Politics, as well. If you bring up a peak experience, where you felt like a great version of yourself and allow yourself to go into that memory, you can change your body chemistry. Bring up that experience in your body, as if it’s happening in the moment. Scan your body, scan your thoughts, scan your feelings, and you can change your body chemistry in under two minutes.
You can practice feeling better and like the best version of yourself. We spend a lot of time analyzing what we consider negative emotions. We spend time processing when you’re angry or sad or feeling hopeless, but it works on the opposite side of things, too. A lot of times, we leave the other emotions out of the equation, because happiness feels like something that happens to us and not something that comes from us. Confidence is another one. No one’s ever told us you can feel confident because you choose to feel confident.
It’s true. I have people tell me all the time that I’m so confident and that they are intimidated by me. I’m always looking over my shoulder wondering who they’re talking to because those aren’t the thoughts that are on a loop in my brain. When other people can mirror back what I’m actually projecting out into the world, which isn’t necessarily a facade, is really interesting. I’m not thinking of myself that way, but that’s certainly how I’m coming across because that’s how I’m acting. Which is a weird dichotomy when you think about it.
I think that has come from doing the work and feeling the feelings and identifying what’s going on and being able to work through it without making myself feel bad. When you try to numb the negative feelings, you also numb the positive feeling.
Yeah, the whole thing gets deadened.
It all comes from the same place so you can’t numb one without numbing the other. You have to allow yourself to experience the entire range of human emotion in order to experience authenticity and just as a human being in general.
Have you seen the movie Finding Nemo?
Yes, I’m pretty sure I just watched it a couple weeks ago.
That’s hysterical. I love that movie. One of my favorite parts is the sharks that are trying to not kill other fish. They have this whole kind of 12-step group and their motto is ‘fish are friends, not food’. I’ve changed that to ‘feelings are friends, not foes’. Think about how you can be friendly and have room for all of your emotions.
One of my favorite books is Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. She talks about fear being ever present in a creative life. What is important is how you deal with that fear. It’s how you make space for it and that is a really powerful concept. It takes a tremendous amount of energy and will and that’s unnecessary to kind of squish that into a box. You can leave room for fear in the backseat of your car, like she talks about. Fear does not get to touch the radio, fear does not get to choose where you’re going. It doesn’t get to have an opinion on where you stop for snacks, but there’s room for it in the backseat.
I love that analogy. I imagine shoving my fear into the backseat and telling it to sit down and shut up. I call my fear Karen, who lives inside my brain and is very negative. I get to the point where I say Karen, thank you for your opinion, you can sit down now. I can picture her stomping away in her high heels with her Karen haircut and sitting down in the back of the room.
This is very effective for me. I think this conversation is so relevant to feminism and feminism ideas of toppling the patriarchy. This is for men, women, and non-gender conforming people. Men are embroiled in toxic masculinity, where feeling any other emotion besides anger is seen as a weakness. Women are constantly told that they’re too emotional. Opposite ends of the spectrum: women have too many emotions and men don’t have enough. We can get to a place where every emotion is valid and it’s safe to experience and express every emotion.
Not just safe within yourself, but safe to have emotions externally around other human beings. When we can get to a point where we don’t need toxic masculinity anymore, because it doesn’t matter if a man cries, he can feel more feelings than anger. He can express more feelings than anger without somebody calling his masculinity into question.
It is a tool to break out of this patriarchal society if we can get to a place where women aren’t trying to appear less emotional and men are not embroiled in anger as the only good emotion to have.
We’re all highly emotional beings. It’s a matter of expression and what we feel safe expressing in a situation. This ties into this idea of shameless self-promotion because we’re always in self-promotion. We’re always promoting something. It could be something that you have an opinion about. As a human being walking around, can you state your opinion, and be okay with that? Can you have a conflict at work and work through that in a way that feels both productive and stimulating?
It does bring up strong emotions, but you work through it together rather than shutting it down. One of the biggest access points for mustering that kind of mastery of emotions is curiosity. Curiosity is my favorite state of being because curiosity is neutral. It is neither good nor bad. If you’re upset, you might not be able to feel good but you might be able to access curiosity. I wonder how I can just feel a little bit better right now. It snowballs its way out of something. It’s not an all at once process and it is a never ending process.
You get through one plateau and you think that x is your problem. So you work your way through x and you grow from that work. Then you move along and find another problem that you have to work through. This is especially true in business where you think that your next goal is to make $5,000 a month and when you get there, there’s a whole new set of mindset work to be done. And so on and so forth.
You’re not fixing your issues. You don’t fix them one time and then never have them again. As you evolve and grow, whatever your goals are, whether it’s money or relationships or whatever, there’s always going to be something else that you’re running into. Your brain is constantly trying to keep you safe from what it perceives as dangerous threats and your brain thinks that anything that it doesn’t know the outcome of is a dangerous threat. If your brain can’t predict exactly what’s going to happen, it thinks you’re in danger. It’s going to try to get you not to do that and the most effective way to get you not to do that is to make you afraid.
No matter what you’re doing, no matter where you’re going, you have to remember, you’re always going to be afraid and you just have to remind your brain that it’s okay to be afraid, but you’re going to do it anyway. Putting yourself out there is probably not going to kill you.
No, absolutely not. You mentioned your inner Karen before. When we’re dealing with fear, one of the visuals that I like to use is a puppy or a kitten because our fear isn’t evolved. Our fear isn’t us. If you imagine that your fear is a puppy or a kitten that is scared and needs to be taken care of, if that appeals to you more, then you can bring up the self-compassion to take care of that.
Assert yourself as the adult taking care of that piece of yourself rather than it being an overwhelming, all-consuming thing or becoming enraged at yourself, which God knows I’ve done many times in the past. Asking myself why do I feel this way? Why do I suck? I love the idea of being able to just sit with those emotions.
As a side note on the business side of things, when we’re talking about self-promotion, it’s a big hurdle for a lot of people. Particularly artists and people who are more on the ‘woowoo’ side of things, which I would classify myself on that side of things. For an analogy, if you offer someone a homemade cookie and whether they accept your cookie or not, it has nothing to do with your cookies. A person may say no because they don’t want a cookie, or they don’t like chocolate, or maybe they’re diabetic. They have their own reasons for saying no and nothing is wrong with your cookie. The same is true for them saying yes. There’s nothing wrong with you when somebody says yes or no to what you’re putting out into the world.
That is a big hurdle for anybody to get over when they’re first starting a business or even as their business grows. Especially when you’re an entrepreneur and you’re in business for yourself. Many businesses are a personal brand using the owner’s name. You’re not selling a product, you are selling yourself.
I have a friend who owns a bookstore and when people don’t buy a book, she gets annoyed. She gets annoyed when they come in and wander around the shop, admire her store, but don’t buy anything. But she doesn’t take that personally, because she’s selling a product. She’s selling books.
When you’re selling your service, your knowledge, your expertise, your strategy, you’re selling yourself on a very personal level. It can be difficult to remember that you’re not really selling yourself, but that you’re selling them an outcome. Those two things do not have to be related. If someone says no, it’s because they weren’t interested in what you had to buy, just like they weren’t interested in your cookie, and that leaves more for the people who are interested.
I think that’s a fantastic way of looking at it. It’s never about us. It’s always about the other person and what they’re experiencing. If we make it about ourselves, we’re not going to sell anything. Coming from personal services, it all has to be about what the outcome is. We’re all self-centered. Human beings are wired to be self-centered. When you’re talking with other people or you are marketing on social media, being curious and interested in what other people are up to is always going to be the pathway to building your business. Particularly in personal services, because relationships are at the heart of every single thing.
Long story short, you can fix the entire world by feeling your feelings and changing your thoughts. Your ego just solved it all. This conversation didn’t go how I was anticipating it to go honestly, but I loved where we ended up because we kind of dived more into authenticity.
In order for you to be the most authentic version of yourself, you have to acknowledge that you are a whole person with the entire range of human emotion inside of you. It is okay and normal and good for you to feel all of your feelings. To acknowledge them. Sometimes I am in a shitty mood for no reason and that is okay.
It’s okay to be pissed off for no reason and take the day to not do anything or not communicate with people because you keep snapping at them. That’s normal. I think that in order for you to get to a point of shameless self-promotion, you first have to explore shameless authenticity. Once you do that, you get to a place where you’re feeling your feelings, because you acknowledge that you’re a human being with human emotions and feeling your feelings can help you topple the patriarchy.
I think that sounds like a perfect place to close, don’t you?
I absolutely do. Feel your feelings, change your thoughts, topple the patriarchy.
Listen to this one over and over again. I’m sure I will be listening to it multiple times because these lessons are so important. These are tools to go in your toolbox that you can use over and over again. When you get curious, don’t be afraid of feeling your feelings. Don’t be afraid of your thoughts or changing your thoughts. Together we’ll all feel our way through toppling the patriarchy and everything will be great.
Thanks for listening to the Feminist Visionaries podcast!
Chris KrimitsosI've known Tina for quite some time—she actually was very active in our local group and has helped quite a few of us. And she's gotten into the B2B niche. So, Tina, if you'd like if you want to just share your screen, and then we'll open it up to Q&A.
Tina DietzYeah! Sounds good.
So, the floor is yours.
Why thank you.
Hi, everybody! Thanks for joining us here today. I'm excited to talk with you. And I'm not much of a PowerPoint fan, but I'm gonna do my best here.
What I'm really excited about, though, is just having an opportunity to talk with you all, and have some Q&A afterwards, because this is an area—Executive and Corporate Podcasting—that I got into… Well, I started talking about it about five years ago now because I was in podcasting, and looking at podcasting trends, and where I saw it was going, I knew it was going to take a while for larger organizations to get into podcasting.
But, like with any trend, it was almost inevitable that it was going to happen.
So, let me back up and share a little bit more. It's really about how to give a nameless, faceless corporation human personality. And this is about half my more executive team. And what we do at Twin Flames Studios is we amplify the messages of trusted brands of leaders, sometimes really well-established entrepreneurs. And we do that in three ways:
Through full-service podcasting, getting things going, very high touch, kind of white glove, concierge service, podcasting, and ongoing production
I, one-on-one, work with executives and CEOs on vocal leadership—which I'll touch on a little bit later when we talk about podcast guesting
And we also do nonfiction audiobooks. Full production, publishing and distribution.
So everything audio, to get your voice out to millions of people.
And I've been building businesses for more than 20 years. I started my career as a therapist, but I grew up as an entrepreneur. And I never met a microphone I didn't like, I say all the time. So, eventually what happened is, after building businesses in about 20 different industries in eight different countries over the course of years as a consultant and a coach, I felt this pull towards doing more with podcasting, doing more with audio, that was where my heart was.
And I had this epiphany that if I could work with enough leaders, who are doing enough amazing things in the world with low hanging fruit like podcasting, and audiobook—some of the lowest hanging fruit for people to start to change their lives—then there was a good chance, you know, what was important to me, I can make a bigger impact in the world, leave the world a better place than I found it.
So that's why we do what we do. We have a global team. We've got folks overseas, we get folks here in the US and Canada, Portugal, Scotland, and I adore my team. So, I love to show them off whenever I can.
So Corporate Podcasting trends—how and why are companies using podcasting.
And like I said, most companies are—well, they're familiar with what podcasting is. But getting it into their own systems is a little different. Because how corporations handle their marketing is quite different than how entrepreneurs handle their marketing. And this was actually a learning curve for me, being a very pure entrepreneur. With all the businesses I've owned, I actually don't come from a corporate background at all. It was my ability to be flexible, and for my company to be flexible, that has really made this work in the corporate and in the B2B space.
So, what we found is that companies are using podcasting for a number different reasons. We're going to break it down, but they're primarily using it in three different ways and wanting to use it in three different ways.
So External Podcasting, which is the type of podcasting, of course, we're all the most familiar with, out into the universe available to everybody. Internal Podcasting, which we'll go into a little bit more, that is when a podcast is only available to the people inside of a company. And Podcast Guesting.
Let's break down these three—and I'm going to move through these slides as quickly as possible so we can get to the juicy meat of the matter talking about what you're most interested in and how it can serve you best.
External Podcasting, of course, they're generating brand awareness. If you look at the research on sticky branding or sticky advertising—it means when it's not directly an ad necessarily, or maybe it's something more narrative of a mention or it's a brand that gets featured in a podcast—that really is the stickiness that sticks to people. And so, they find that with podcast advertising or podcast branding, people who listen to podcasts are about 70% more likely to do business with a brand mentioned on a podcast or a brand offering a podcast. So, very important.
Attracting new clients and customers is what most of us are trying to do in podcast and podcasting on the business side of things. So, in this case, we're not talking about narrative podcasting, we're not talking about NPR style, business podcasting. That is a trend and I think what some of the people who do it best are “Pacific Content” out in Vancouver—they run Charles Schwab's external podcast, they run Facebook's external podcast; I had the pleasure of interviewing one of their executives recently, and I have tremendous respect for what they do. But every one of those episodes is tens of thousands of dollars in production, because it is a full-time, massive deal.
So, most of the podcasting we're seeing externally, with corporate, with B2B, is not quite in that range. We can—we do see that sometimes in enterprise level companies, like Facebook, like Charles Schwab, some other large, large corporations. But companies that are in, say, the three to $35 million range—some of them maybe even considered, you know, small to mid-sized business, rather than super large corporations—they're really looking to expand their presence in a way that allows them to keep their humanity. You know, remember a lot of these are well established businesses, they're used to doing their marketing and their networking, face-to-face or as we say, belly-to-belly. And so podcasting is very appealing to these companies, particularly at this time as they're having to pivot and still wanting to keep the relationships, in their marketing, in their networking, and particularly creating relationships with industry influencers to widen their professional network.
Very rarely do we ever find that if you reach out to somebody and ask them to be on your show, or any of our companies, they reach out to an influencer in their industry—lots in finance, in particular that we work with—that somebody turns them down. It's basically “Hey, would you come and have a really friendly conversation with me for half an hour about things you're most interested in and passionate about?” Not a hard sell. So, our clients get really thrilled at having this media platform to share, that allows it to open doors for them.
And of course, that leads to creating collaboration. My favorite, favorite value out of B2B and Corporate Podcasting is what happens after the interview. Yes, there are audience members; yes, you have downloads; yes, we have, you know, growth. And we're generally not looking at podcasts that are necessarily in the thousands of downloads per episode, because we're looking at very niche podcasts. And we are also looking at the collaboration and the relationships that happen with the guests—between the guests and the host between, the guests and the company—as these podcasts come along. It does improve SEO to the websites. SEO is one of those things that seems like more magic than anything else these days. A lot of the things we all knew to do years ago with meta tags, and keywords, and all this other stuff… It's really kind of gone away and really gone the way of organic.
So, corporations are using the podcast to generate long form content that can then be repurposed into transcript-based articles on their website—which are fantastic for SEO, particularly paired with a few other important pieces. So that's External Podcasting—the main reasons and why—we're seeing for External Podcasting.
Internal Podcasting is another animal, and this is a rising area. It's just starting to come forward and flourish a little bit, particularly in enterprise-sized companies. So, this has more to do with development and reinforcement of company culture. Culture development is key to things, like you know, making sure that things actually get done. Efficiency, particularly now that everybody is working from home, or so many people are working from home; it's how we can create a little bit more glue, and have people not feel quite as alone or lonely.
And it also really helps to prevent things like screen fatigue: if you can listen with your earbuds while you're doing the dishes, or taking your dog for a walk, you don't have to be staring at a screen like you are all day for regular work. And screen fatigue is a real thing—it has shown to decrease productivity, it increases a certain number of health risks in a big population. And corporations are always looking at corporate wellness inside of their corporate company culture. So, this is actually more to it than meets the eye when we think about culture.
It's also great, of course, for dissemination of important information. We're moving fast. There's a lot of town hall meetings that happen inside of companies, or they're rolling out new products, or particularly with some of the companies we work with in the pharmaceutical/healthcare side of things, everything's changing right now with Coronavirus, and people need to be kept in the know. Podcasting internally is a way to disseminate that information in a more intimate way than a newsletter. And also in a more human way, than they’re used to, you know, providing this, you know, very kind of cold, documented information. We're still seeing people doing everything written, but adding on the voice, adding on the relationship, and the warmth.
Also, to educate and inform teams, particularly sales teams as they're rolling out new products, features of those products, how to sell them, who to sell them to—issues that might be coming up talking about your sales numbers. A lot more interesting to celebrate your wins, by meeting your sales goals over a podcast and to hear somebody announcing your name—it's like “Hey, a big shout out to John Smith! And, you know, Amelia, for you know, blowing away the sales numbers this month, you know, make sure when you see them in the hallway today, you know, give them a shout out, send them an email.” It's great to hear that. That celebration, acknowledgement of achievements is a really, really big one—who doesn't love to hear their name being mentioned by leadership, right, or being interviewed?
And the sharing of stories and inspiration, particularly Leadership Development. Leadership Development is the biggest area we're seeing for internal podcasting, and in internal employee resource groups. And I'll talk about a specific example in a minute about that.
So, I wanted to dive in and talk about a couple of specific instances where we can see how Corporate Podcasting is being used, you know, directly. And so, we have been working with the folks at Tri-Merit. They're a corporation outside of Chicago, and they have a very, very niche business. They had no marketing team up until about a year ago, and their marketing team actually contacted us to help with the podcast. They find R&D tax credits for technology companies. Can you hear the crickets, thinking about how you would create podcast content about this?
But what they do mostly, is they have relationships with CPA firms. That's where they generate most of their business. And they are passionate about the world of public accounting. Again, not something I would ever find myself naturally drawn to be passionate about, but these guys are thrilled, and finding the stories in the public accounting world that are unique, that are interesting—they're getting them out there. And they're using this as a beautiful networking tool. You have never seen a more excited group of folks talking about public accounting than these guys. And they do fantastic work in the world. So, this podcast for them has been the hub of their content marketing, allowing them to then create social media, allowing them to then follow up with their guests afterwards, and generate collaborative opportunities, generate other guest speaking opportunities. All kinds of networking happens when the host or their team follows up with these guests after the fact.
Now let's talk a little bit about Internal Podcasting. I have to talk about the Podcast Inc. conference, which is going to be online this fall. And I don't know if any of you know Jennifer Crawford. Jennifer Crawford is the founder of DC PodFest. And you know, Jennifer and I have known Chris for years, and know the folks from She Podcasts for years. And there's this wonderful collaboration and cross promotion that happens in the background with all of these podcasts’ conferences, which I love. And Jennifer saw a need in the industry to have a one-day conference specifically in this area, because it really wasn't being addressed a whole lot of places. It's very, very niche.
And so, what we did when we moved the conference from May to November, is—I went out and I said, “Jennifer, why don't we do a limited series podcast on Internal Corporate Podcasting and use this as a lead up?” So, this just came out about two weeks ago. And we're just ramping up the promotion of the conference. But if you want to look up PodcastInc.co/podcast, you can find this and listen to these episodes from different aspects of the Corporate Podcasting world specifically talking about Internal Podcasting, but also Corporate External Podcasting sneaks in there as well.
So then we talk about things like security and the use of a podcast intranet. One of the biggest issues for Corporate Podcasting is security. And so, platforms like PodBean, Blubrry, and Libsyn all have internal podcasting capability, and you have to find out what works for you. What we're finding is that these corporations want to use their already existing intranet to disseminate podcast information. And that's actually what we're doing with the folks at Novo Nordisk right now developing an internal podcast with them, for their women in leadership employee resource group. And what's cool about that is, as we're getting further into the process, the folks from the women in leadership resource group are reaching out to the other employee resource groups to see about developing a collaboration so that the podcast can live over time.
It's a very different development art—for those of you who work with podcast show development—then an external podcast. It's a much slower process, for the most part, and also there's a lot of little baby steps. So, what we've learned in this process, in the back end, is just to let things play out and have some patience. But people are really, really coachable, really, really interested in learning, and very excited about making their workplace better. So it's very, very cool.
One of the ways we're using podcasts a lot in corporate, both Internal and I'll also reference back to External, is Limited Series like this podcasting. Podcasting doesn't have to go on forever: For companies that feel like it's a high risk to commit to a full year or an ongoing podcast, we work with them on a limited series. A to 10 to 12 episodes to start, and we say “You know what? If this doesn't work out for you, if you don't feel like you want to keep going, then you've got a really great marketing asset and a series that you can use.” So, we always bring up seasons, we always bring up limited series podcast, and we find that most of the time when they get into the groove, they do want to keep going.
We also see in Internal Podcasting, the use of External Podcasts for internal purposes. So, you can repurpose the material you're sending out to folks, and make sure that your team, you know, is actually getting that information. And we're starting to develop databases of podcast information for say a group of financial advisors to then be able to keyword-in and then send out articles, and podcast episodes, specifically to their clients and really use the podcast as a resource.
Podcast Guesting—we're just going to check on this real quick. This is some of the companies that I've worked with, some of their executives, in one capacity or another around their vocal leadership and/or Podcast Guesting. And so, Podcast Guesting, we're finding a lot of usage for executives who are looking to set themselves apart, to have third party credibility, to develop their personal brand, and to do personal leadership PR, which is different than company PR. I work with a wonderful company out of Manhattan, and they help leaders get their leadership profile amplified. And we do a lot of work with their folks around getting them prepared to be on a podcast knowing that they can have this laid-back intimate, conversational relationship. They're not teaching, they're not reporting. They're in a relationship with the host. And we work with them heavily on their storytelling, so that they're not boring guests. And they come across as the people they really are, which is warm and professional, and really out to make a difference in the world. And that conversational interview style and format makes this possible. So, Podcast Guesting we're seeing a lot of rise in the director and above level of executives in corporations.
Okay! 20 minutes.
So all right, and I wanted to leave 10 minutes for Q&A, and seeing if there's any other examples we want to talk about if we want. You guys can go to TwinFlamesStudios.com/PodFest—I've got a bunch of materials for you there. I'm not a funnel girl. Don't sell things via email. But I do have our Vocal Leadership Workout, our package on How To Be a Guest and more podcasts, and some additional articles on Corporate Podcasting that we will just send you in an email if you go to that particular link.
That's it.
Awesome, Tina. So I’ll put it back to speaker view, if you could just unshare for a second there.
You’ve got it.
Alright, so we have a couple questions. When it comes to Internal Podcasting within a corporate culture, how do you know what to charge? Is it per minute, or? Because you're dealing with very big companies—like how do you figure out what to charge?
Yeah, so with these large companies, we're generally not dealing with the umbrella of the company; we're dealing with a small section of a company. So, these Employee Resource Groups have their own budget. So, the first thing is to find out what are their budgets to work with. They don't have tremendously large budgets, and if you can work with them—I usually work with them on a consulting basis and then go from there. Because many times they have internal resources even to do the editing and things like that. They need to know how to get things going.
So, an internal podcast, is that open on an Apple feed? Or is it, you know what I mean, so it's internally?
Yeah, so these are being—
How do you set them up? I'm just curious.
Well, it's actually, again, because these are larger companies, they want to handle the tech themselves. So, it's really a matter of teaching them, showing them how to create the content, how to manage the workflow. These are a lot of things we do, you know? Conceptually, how do you internally market a podcast? And then it requires interfacing with multiple departments to actually find, you know, work with them to get the show loaded up onto their intranet. Like I said, there are the—
That’s right, they all have Internet and MI Departments, computer guys, you know, people.
Yeah, yeah. So, it's a different animal, you're not going up on a hosting platform, unless they do want to use Blubrry or PodBean, or Libsyn—are the big three right now that have Internal Corporate Podcasting platforms. We're gonna see that happen more in mid-sized companies that don't quite have intranets, but still want to have control and security.
So then you're seeing that… I found it interesting you're seeing a lot of C-Level executives wanting to grow their brand by going out on other podcasts—you're seeing that?
Yeah, there's an interesting point in an executive’s career—you're rising up in these in these large industries, you know, they've distinguished themselves and they've kind of hit a certain level and to go from say, what we call a Director Level executive, into a C-Level executive really requires distinguishing oneself with Thought Leadership in some way.
And so, Podcast Guesting is a way to distinguish oneself on Thought Leadership, that is outside the company. You know, there's an old saying that says, you know, “it's hard to become a hero in your own hometown.” So, if people know you really well, they think they know you. Well, if you're out there, and all of a sudden, you're on a podcast or a bunch of podcasts as a guest, that gives you a third-party credibility in your leadership and your development of your Thought Leadership. This is usually paired with a whole package of executive PR, of articles, or press releases, or other types of materials, that kind of all go together to help develop somebody's leadership. Getting on Boards of Directors is another really big thing. And when boards go out and research potential candidates, one of the things they look for is have they done media, and most of these folks haven't done any media because most of the media that's taught at a corporate level is high pressure crisis media.
You’re right, “how to protect yourself when everything hits the fan.” That's true. There's no… This is a… I have to tell you… This is… The more you talk, it's like the beginning of a new era, because you're right, the C-Level executives are only trained, “Don't talk to media, unless you talk to your PR department before you go out there.” Now, they're being proactive, and they're interfacing with podcasts. And I guess they also have to build their personal brand, because who knows how long they'll be an executive with that company till the next one. And, you know, there's—
Yeah, there's a fair amount of mobility and talent even, in these times, you know, top talent is something that companies are always looking to retain. It's a big issue. And we find that podcasting is a way to really bring out their voice not so much in a technical way. Working with the executives on their storytelling is one of my absolute favorite things, to have them go from this kind of teaching reporting style, that they're used to doing in meetings and things like that, and kind of teasing out the humanity. And the really cool thing is that once they learn that, now they're bringing it back to their teams and having different conversations with their teams. And that's what we go deeper into Vocal Leadership training.
So, this is really a cutting edge field of consulting, if I hear you correctly, like a media training, which they always have, but on the podcasting side, and you're at the forefront of it.
Yeah, I'd like to think so.
No, you are I mean, it's only going to grow as we move forward. What trends are you seeing with corporations and B2B type stuff? So, there's Internal Podcasting going on, you're doing external facing… Any other trends that you see? Obviously, they're trying to build their PR cred by going on other podcasts shows—
Yeah, what we're seeing a lot is that the internal marketing teams in these companies really, really want to do podcasting. I spoke at a conference a little over a year ago in Scottsdale, big B2B conference, had a packed room of 100 people speaking at a panel, and two thirds of the people in the room raised their hand when they said, “Are you trying to start a podcast in your company?” And they were running into issues with time, they were running issues with knowledge, they were running issues with budget.So coming in and being able to stay the course—these are, of course, much longer relationship building sales cycles than, most entrepreneurs, generally care to go with. I have people ask me all the time, “So can you introduce me to your people at GE so I can be a corporate, you know, trainer there?” And I'm like, “That's not how this works.” It's not the warm introduction cycle that we're used to as entrepreneurs to build our network. So, there's a lot, there's a fair amount more to it than that. It's a fascinating world, but it's definitely growing.
Yeah, a few years ago, I had, I was approached by a big $800 million, like trust, and I just remember, for them to make a decision was like 10 different committee meetings, and they still hadn't decided and they said, “Oh, this is too cutting edge.” I'm like, “This is actually not”—this was just a couple years ago—and I’m like, “It's not cutting edge. And you guys have money by the time you implement it,” you know, but it's just amazing to see how they make decisions. And you’re right. It's not the entrepreneurial world.
No, they’re much more risk-averse.
So yeah, when you do get the contract, because there's a huge lead cycle in this kind of field. So, I'm excited for what you're doing.
Thank you.
Tina, your numbers—we started at like, 50, we ballooned to 70. We have 60-something people here is amazing. I just want to give a shout out to Ross Brand, Al Mega, Dr. Ellen, Rachel Hernandez, commenting, chatting.Anything that you see for artificial voice in corporate or is that going to take time? Like the [Alexa] skills, are you seeing anything there?
Any artificial voice—any truly artificial voice that it's not a human voice—we find a lot of resistance to and I also have a tremendous amount of resistance to it. Because to me, that is the polar opposite of what podcast gets used for. You know, when you and I worked together and I did a bunch of the interviews for The Messengers movie—if you haven't watched it, watch it—you know the thing that came up across all those interviews that we did was the word intimacy and podcast and creating intimacy. And so, an AI voice is the opposite of intimacy. And I don't think we're going to see mechanized or automated voices, takeover things anytime soon. Will we see things go into voice activation? Will we see more happening with Alexa? Yeah, I do think we'll see that. But there's a lot of privacy concerns, particularly in corporations. So that's the last place we're gonna see that; we're gonna see that in the consumer market way way sooner.
Oh, well, Tina, people can reach out to you through the app, connect with you. Thank you for taking the time out. Just tell us your website one last time.
Awesome. Tina, thank you so much. You always knock it out of the park. You're a pro.
Thanks everyone for joining us.
I know you got a lot on your agenda. So, thank you for being part of this and supporting what we do. And also thank you for—I forgot but you did… Tina did the initial interviews, probably half of the movie. The Messengers came out with interviews Tina did while we were running the second ever Pod Fest. And if you haven't seen The Messengers: A Podcast Documentary—I'm gonna have Andrew upload it to the conference so people could see it. But thank you for mentioning that, Tina. Thank you for doing that for us.
It’s a great project. One of my favorite things.
It was awesome. Thank you.
Take care.
Goodbye now.
Interested in learning more about Internal Podcasting, External Podcasting, and Podcast Guesting?
