Here’s some facts that might shock you. 500 million tweets are sent out daily, and the weight of that sheer amount of content can be felt. On top of that, 11% of these tweets come from bots, whose sole purpose is to generate content.
In a world of AI-generated content and increasingly cluttered digital noise, it’s more important than ever to have our authenticity and humanity be heard. But aren’t you as exhausted as I am with the notion that you must be EVERYWHERE in order to stay relevant and ‘top of mind?’
So, we can use technology to help us, right? Our tech tools are wonderful, but they can also go completely off the rails. Here’s a few entertaining but cringe-worthy examples of #MARKETINGFAILS.
KFC had to apologize after sending a promotional message to customers in Germany urging them to commemorate Kristallnacht with cheesy chicken. Kristallnacht was a Nazi-era attack resulting in the death of 90+ Jewish people, marking the beginning of the Holocaust. Yikes. This PR meltdown started because KFC programmed a bot to send automated push notifications based on calendar events, including national observance days.
In another notable campaign, Coca-Cola encouraged people to reply to negative tweets with #MakeItHappy, so a bot could transform the negative words of the tweet into a cute image. As things on the internet so often do, Coke’s innocent attempt at positivity went south as quotes from Hitler’s Mein Kampf were tagged with #MakeItHappy. The bot made positive images, one of them being a cat playing the drums, out of Hitler’s words. When technology tools go unregulated, we see these types of consequences occurring.
Inflation nowadays…
And yet, we must ABC! (Always Be Creating…right?)
The Thought Leaders, like you, that we work with every day have brilliant bodies of work through your audiobooks and podcasts that we produce with you.
BUT, what I hear most often from our clients is the experience of ‘content fatigue.’ This is the state of listening to their own message over and over again in their minds, on paper, in their emails, and in their courses and classes. Content fatigue is something that thought leaders battle every day.
Did you know, however, that our audiences don’t get tired of entertaining, interesting content? Particularly when that content is surrounding a focused topic.
I never get bored of the antics of the Pearls Before Swine comics, or of JauncyDev, the content creator who famously creates videos giving human personalities to different dog breeds. Millions of people eagerly await every single derivative that these content creators bring to the table, month on month and year upon year.
We, as thought leaders, are no different. When we allow ourselves to go deeper into our content to find derivatives and angles on the topics we’re already in love with, our audiences come along with us.
3 Ways to Get Re-Energized From Your Own Message
The ‘Book Oracle’
Open your book to any page and read a couple of paragraphs out loud while running a voice recording app on your phone in the background. Then stop looking at the book but keep talking, stream of consciousness style, riffing on your own content. Transcribe what you say and see what new nuggets arise.
The ‘Indignant Response’
Set Google Alerts for keywords or topics in your book, and allow yourself to get catalyzed by what pops up. I used this method in the creation of this message- it’s a response to the article on AI generated content issues where I learned about the KFC fail.
The ‘Dear Abby’
Collaborate with a colleague, fan, or team member who is familiar with your work to send you a question each week for you to answer. These questions can be created for each chapter of your book, or episode of your podcast. Freely allow yourself to answer and ask questions as you capture this exchange in a document, in emails, or even in video or audio exchanges.
The last thing any of us need right now as humans, much less as leaders, is more noise. Focusing on content ‘craft’ vs. ‘crap’ is the gift we can give ourselves as a good use of our time, and the gift we can give the people we serve to make their time and attention worthwhile.
Inspired to turn your Voice into influence and become a Thought Leader worth listening to?
Did you know one of the most powerful ways you can connect with your clients is through podcasting? You can learn more about the benefits of podcasting, what questions you need to answer before you begin your podcast, and how Twin Flames Studios helps get your voice into more ears on my guest interview with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast.(Scaling Up Services Podcast with Bruce Eckfeldt, October 2021)
Tina spoke with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast to discuss how podcasts hone your brand, provide evergreen marketing content, and create deeper relationships.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why audio is one of the most intimate mediums for storytelling
The top questions to ask before you start your podcast
How podcasts can revitalize your marketing and expand your reach
Bruce Eckfeldt Are you a CEO looking to scale your company faster and easier? Check out Thrive Roundtable. Thrive combines a moderated peer group mastermind expert one on one coaching access to proven growth tools and a 24/7 support community. Created by Inc. award-winning CEO and certified Scaling Up Business coach, Bruce Eckfeldt, Thrive will help you grow your business more quickly and with less drama. For details on the program, visit eckfeldt.com/thrive.
Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. Our guest today isTina Dietz. She is the founder at Twin Flames Studios. We're going to talk to her about the work that she does with companies helping them with creating content, with promotion. This is a really kind of interesting topic. I think so many service companies based their marketing, based their sales and lead development, based on thought leadership and getting content out in the world. And there's so many different types of content and so many different ways you can do it. I really think they–obviously I love podcasting–but you know, podcasts, audiobooks, you know, spoken word kind of content, there's so many things you can do with it. There's so many things you can use to generate awareness, generate thought leadership, generate leads. I'm excited for this and excited to hear Tina’s story and how she got into this this world of audio content production and what she's been doing with service companies. So, with that, Tina, welcome to the program.
Tina DietzHey, Bruce, thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure having you on. So before we dive into what you're doing with Twin Flames right now and stuff, why don't we talk a little bit about you and get a sense of your background? Give us the story. What was your professional journey? And how did you get into what you're doing today?
Well, like most entrepreneurs, it's fairly stupid. It's just like, “Well, how the hell did this happen?” Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what we hear more than everything. If you had asked me, you know, when I was growing up, if, you know, in 25 years or whatever, you're going to own a company that produces audio content in the land of thought leadership for service-based companies. I'm sorry, what? What, what? It didn't even exist, right? You know, at the time?
So my upbringing was I had a younger sibling–that was a business. My parents owned a business that they started when I was three years old. It was my younger sibling, and I hated it. It was a wood burning stove and fireplace business. So real sexy, awesome. And basically, that was my constant companion growing up. So I was steeped like a tea bag in entrepreneurship. From a very young age, I started answering phones when I was four and going to trade shows when I was six, I do a whole talk will have to do another time maybe on how I found my purpose in life through the Ginsu knife demonstration at a local fair. So that’s a whole thing, that's the whole thing. And, you know, I never really thought I'd own a business, but I became a therapist–for a number of reasons. Childhood was not a great place. But you know, lessons learned. It's one of those things. And I've spent a lot of time in the world of personal development, in leadership and all of that. So cultivating myself, of course, created in me a desire to see what else could be done for other people.
That led me to coaching and consulting, which then ended up leading me to podcasting and ultimately to audio production. Basically, through a paid hobby I had as a voice actor. You know, I'm an entrepreneur, we can't have regular hobbies, we have to have hobbies that pay us. That's the way it works. We can't have normal hobbies. So I was a voice actor on the side and taking some classes and masterclasses in audiobook narration. And I had this chocolate and peanut butter moment, this light bulb, aha, that, “Oh, my God, why aren't all my clients and colleagues who are doing best selling campaigns and producing books, why aren't they doing audiobooks?” And that was, as Michael Gerber from The E Myth says, you know, my “entrepreneurial seizure” that led me to investigate the world of audio and led me to a big gap in the market and dove into that.
I took over my business within a year of starting to offer services in this big market gap of done-for-you audiobooks, and also the corporate side of podcasting. And that is kind of was the best decision that I ever made. And so I went from basically being a solopreneur, consultant who'd worked with more than 20 industries in eight countries to being the CEO of a company that now produces content in the land of audio that changes lives and hearts and minds for service-based companies and making sure that they're having this beautiful, human, authentic voice of their company that comes through this medium of audio.
Yeah, I'm curious. You've had a couple of different kind of pivots in your commercial world and career what are some of the things that you had to learn or had to kind of change about your thinking, your leadership, your approach during those pivots?
Bruce, I thought you said this was only a half hour podcast.
The top two. Just the top two.
The top two. One: choose who gets in your ear very carefully, very carefully. I'm very much of a happy puppy kind of person. I'm just like, “Yeah, let's do it. Let's change the world. Let's make it happen.” I have a lot of enthusiasm and energy and kind of that visionary habit–you see something and you want to make it happen. And it took me a long time to really learn how to vet the people that I was working with, or who I was throwing in with, because I assumed for a long time, in a very naive way, that everyone had the same values that I did around integrity and communication, and, you know, working together and making sure everybody wins. And it doesn't always work that day. Most people, most people, 99% of people on the planet are doing their best. But you know, problems and challenges that come up, don't always bring out the best in people. Sometimes it brings out the worst in people. And so learning how to create relationships over time and cultivate those relationships carefully has been a huge game changer in my world to keep things consistent and growing in the right direction.
And the other piece of the puzzle has been, you know, doing my own inner work. I'd say all the time that we were born with two voices: the voice you speak with and the voice that speaks to you. And working on the voice that speaks to me has made the biggest difference in anything that I've done as a leader, as a business owner, as a partner, a wife, a mom, you know, on any of that, to cultivate that inner world–and I could do many, many, many hours, and all the things that have happened there. But suffice to say it's been a journey.
That's a really great, that's a great realization. And yeah, I think it's, you know, time is your most precious commodity and where you spend it, you know, how you spend it, who you spend it with, are all kinds of things that are really going to influence your success and what you end up doing. Tell me a little bit about kind of why audio content? I mean, what's your kind of take on the world? You know, that we're in today? Why is audio content so powerful, so important? Why have you chosen to focus on it?
Well, going back to what I said a moment ago about our internet, our voices, it's something every human being on the planet is born with. And it's something that cannot be taken away. And speaking, as someone who has felt in the past that my voice was taken away and was suppressed, having that voice and having a place at the table to have that voice heard, is incredibly valuable. And so, everything that I have done, and what we do as a company with Twin Flames, is designed to give people a place at the table so that their voices are heard. And then it creates this incredible ripple effect that you know, podcasts and audiobooks are some of the lowest hanging fruit on the planet for people to start changing their lives.
If we can be a part of more leadership voices and more positive voices and more great information, reaching people all over the world, so that they can start to change their lives. That is a really powerful place to be. It is really about making the world a better place one kind of drip of audio at a time. And audio is very, very, very intimate compared to most other forms of media. It's single focus. Most people listen to audio right into their ear. So there is a neurological connection that's very powerful between, you know, the earbud I have in my ear, and the center of my brain, the amygdala, the hippocampus, all of those things. It's not just higher brain functions being impacted by the voice. And so there's an intimacy created in an impact that's really important. And storytelling, of course, is incredibly powerful worldwide. It's something that connects all of humanity. So when we bring all these factors together, neurological, you know, storytelling, how we're wired, the universal power of the human voice to create relationship–it's a very, very powerful medium. And it can be used in so many different ways and sliced and diced, and at the pace we're living at, you know, audio is the most portable form of media. You can listen when you can't read you can listen when you can't watch. So you know, it's never gone away. It's never going to go away. And all of those things together make it what I consider the perfect storm for perfect content.
Yeah, I was like that idea that audio content literally gets you in your prospect’s head.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got it.
So what are all the kinds of formats these days? I mean, we kind of went from you know, I date myself accidentally when I say I'm listening to a book on tape or something.
I know, right? Me too.
It's morphed so many times, like what is your kind of how do you kind of lay out the scope or the types of audio content that that you have at your disposal these days?
Well, we usually start with a primary form of content, which is generally a podcast. Podcasting, of course, is something that is hot right now. I’m on one as we speak, and it provides a nice bulk of content to start with, and a framework to start with. So unlike a video, the average video watcher will watch two minutes, but the average podcast listener will listen for 40 minutes.
And it's actually much harder to create short form content than it is slightly longer form content. We have thoughts, you know, curating what we say, you know, the brevity or like cutting things down to its core is much more challenging than this kind of a conversational format. And so, it allows people to be very natural, and very expansive in what they're talking about to dig into nitty gritty and to know that the listener is still going to be interested more than two minutes in, so you're not trying to pack things in. So we start with a longer form 20-30 minute podcast, usually sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but that's on average what it is. And that gives us a lovely bulk of content to work with.
From there, there's all different ways to slice and dice that type of content, repurpose it, reuse it. And the authenticity that comes through when you're using audio and using this type of format is really important to reach people on a deeper basis, rather than just an informational basis.
Yeah. And when you look at companies, what are I guess, what are some of the companies or situations that are best served with audio content? Like who can really benefit from this form of content?
Well, we love working with relationship-focused, service-based companies. People who, when they're working with their clients, they have long-term relationships with their clients. For example, companies, which seem very dry, but there's a lot of content available in the financial world, in insurance, for example, education of varying kinds, and even things like retail, retail conglomerates, and things like that, that are creating more experiences. Travel can be served in this way, as well, although it does, definitely does need to be paired with the visual aspect as well. But it can be really, really, really beautiful. You will see a lot of influencer podcasting, that's generally not our super cup of tea.
We do a lot of work in the leadership space, though, helping to humanize brands that are large, and give the brand an avatar because we don't really do business with faceless, nameless corporations. We want to do business with people. So being able to communicate brand values and culture and leadership and innovation through the avatar of a podcast host is extremely powerful. Another industry that benefits a lot from podcasting is healthcare. And all of these have constraints with compliance and communication and legal and all of that. But we're able to navigate all of those waters, as well.
Yeah, yeah. So what are some of the other challenges? If you are interested in developing audio content? Like what do you need to kind of consider or think about setup?
The lift is largely at the beginning when you're–well with any type of content, right, so you have to decide that has enough value that you're going to spend the brain capacity and the bandwidth and the time to work with a company like ours, so that we can help you shape that voice and shape the type of content that's really going to benefit you. So choosing that it's going to be a priority.
And then having deep, intimate communication and regular awesome content are things that you really want to do, you also need to decide in terms of you know–and we work with our companies on this–like who's going to be hosting, who's your avatar, who's your people or person that you're going to be featuring. And there's a lot of creative ways to work with that scenario, as well. Everything from solo hosts to two hosts to a panel discussion and everything in between. There's, there's a lot of different ways to manage those kinds of questions, particularly if there's multiple people inside of a company who want to be at the forefront being that avatar for the company, that's all completely manageable.
Another thing the company really needs to decide is if their marketing department, and their team, how we're going to dovetail this with their other strategic initiatives. Podcasting should be one piece and audio should be a piece of a larger strategic picture for a company. It should never be a band-aid or just an outlier. It needs to be integrated because it is something that has high strategic value, and can augment or replace creating content in other areas like blog posts, social media post images, articles for industry publications, and even events and getting used in events in different ways. So, there's a lot of applications and being willing to dive into the strategy is super important.
And what goes into that strategy? What questions are you asking or what do companies need to think about, you know, in terms of understanding kind of the bigger picture strategy before they really get into, you know, executing a particular kind of audio content strategy?
Yeah, we like to get into working with their marketing team. and finding out what are their core values that they're looking to communicate. What is that mission? What is their vision for their company, and then building out kind of an avatar of their host, not of their audience, but of their host. You know, if you had to personify your company, who is kind of that person and that spokesperson to do that? That's certainly an area that we start with, we also need to look at, as I mentioned, their current strategic initiatives. What's already working for them in terms of their marketing? How can podcasting build upon that and make it even more robust? And what are their pain points that we can address that are challenging?
So one of the pain points we run into a lot with companies is just the generation of content to begin with, particularly from a very busy team. A larger company, you know, when you ask somebody to go and say, “Hey, would you write a blog post on this?” somebody who's a technician or a salesperson or whatever, they may not be a writer to do that. Using interview techniques, we can extract and pull really wonderful, real conversational information from team members that can be pulled into podcasting content, or then even turned into articles or ebooks or, you know, other types of content, as well. And the creation process becomes 100 times easier. And this is, of course, scalable for any size company to do that, whether we're working with a sales team, or we're working with, you know, a CPA firm.
Yeah. You mentioned a couple times the idea of leveraging the content, what are some ways that you can kind of use the, the initial content, leverage it in different ways? You know, repurpose it. What are some things that companies should be thinking about when they develop a kind of a content strategy, starting with audio content?
Sure, I'll kind of walk you through a whole process, potential process flow on that. So let's say your podcast gets made, and the audio content is going out to 20-30 different audio distribution platforms, everything from Spotify to Apple podcasts and whatnot. So it lives all out in the world of public podcasting. Well, then the full edited transcript of that podcast, along with an embedded player, which has a number of features on it that are really helpful for the listener, click to tweets, and custom captioned images are all embedded on the website, usually in the form of a blog post. So we have, first, fresh content that goes into your blog.
And secondly, this is all gorgeous for your search engine optimization. Google loves fresh, long form conversational content, because Google is moving towards AI for their search engine optimization. This longer form conversational podcast content is so helpful for SEO, particularly with all the bells and whistles to kind of go along with it. So, from there, you can take the we have always have a little summary at the top and we have our quotes that are pulled out. Those are repurposed into social media posts, usually either on say a company page on LinkedIn that are then shared with the employees, shared with the team so that then they all can share those posts as well.
We also pull out short clips, little highlights from the podcast and turn them into what are called audiograms, which are little shareable, closed-caption dynamic videos. Those are also shared on social media. And one of my other favorite places to use audiograms is to embed them in related blog posts on the site that aren't necessarily the podcast episode, but maybe related content. So then you are cross-pollinating your website content and also creating a more dynamic experience for somebody visiting your website, because now you've got this lovely little 30-second to one minute long video that's breaking up the content on a related post and maybe getting people interested in staying on your website longer. Yeah, so those are just a few of the things that you can do.
We even recommend that whoever is the guest on the podcast, or even the host, depending on the situation, repurpose the link to their podcast on the publication section of their LinkedIn profile. A lot of people only use articles or blog posts, but you can use your podcast interviews as part of your publications list. And that helps build out, of course, your LinkedIn presence. For those folks of us who are in the B2B world or in the, you know, the business world. It's really nice to have that additional fresh content on your LinkedIn profile to kind of keep you top of mind for people.
So those are just a couple. Those are just a couple elements. And the other big one we see a lot of is turning podcast content into industry publication articles. So basically having writers–either folks we've introduced you to, or folks on their team. One of our companies that we work with primary tax solutions, they're a specialty tax company, and they've now had six articles based on their podcasts–content produced and published in publications like Accounting Today.
Yeah, I love that idea is like you create one piece and then you can find lots of different ways. Oh, my goodness repurposing it makes it so much easier or just create so much more leverage in terms of the work you do. What are some of the challenges? Certainly, when I started podcasting, you know, it wasn't, there was some hesitation and trepidation about kind of really getting into this and putting myself out there like that. What do you do to help folks who, you know, are considering this, but they're not quite sure they have maybe some, you know, maybe a little bit of fear around some of this stuff. You know, creating this content, really putting it out there–what are ways in which you help them kind of evaluate and create an opportunity for them to really get into this space?
It really just, it lives in the world of conversation. So, Bruce, would it be accurate to say that, you know, one of your big considerations was time?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. And that's really the biggest thing we have to talk about is, where are your priorities, and where is your time going to be, because even if we're handling 90% of what has to go into the podcast production, we're still going to need, you know, some time for the marketing team and of course, the host and things like that to spend some time in that arena. So it just really has to be a priority, and they need to be well suited. So there's a lot of evaluation that goes on at the beginning, everything from talking about, like I said, the creation of kind of this avatar. We even use thought leadership archetypes that we have developed based on the 12 Jungian archetypes to help kind of shape the brand of the podcast in conjunction with the company's brand to make sure that there's this consistent voice.
So everything that we do really lives in relationship and inquiry and curiosity. And and then from there, the strategy, but we come at it–I would say that, you know, a lot of times I'm practicing my “Business Buddha” and that means I come from a place of non-attachment. It really has to be all about the clients and not about us and seeing what's going to be best. And sometimes it's not the best solution for that company, or it's not the right time. Sometimes it's the absolute perfect time, and the company is absolutely 100% ready to go. Sometimes there's a little bit of a delay until a few ducks get in a row and we say, “Hey, you know, you really should have X, Y, and Z handled before we start this process.” So it always has to be in the best interest of the company, so that we can get the best product, because, as you know, Bruce, podcasting isn't a one and done deal. It's a long tail game. Yeah, you know, so we got to have time.
Yeah, no, let's dig into that just a little bit. ‘Cause I find I see a lot of podcasts out there that get to like episode eight.
Yeah.
You know, big plans, big ideas, and then, you know, just, you know, a big initial push, but, they just kind of fade quickly. What are some things that can help you to prevent that or will help you, you know, kind of be in it for the long game?
Well, most of our companies, we recommend starting with a bi-weekly schedule, instead of a weekly schedule. You can always add episodes. You can always add frequency as you go. But bi-weekly gives enough frequency for folks to really get content out on a regular basis without it necessarily being an overwhelming time commitment. We also work to develop out the content calendar, and make sure that we've actually got, you know, 12 or 24 potential episodes kind of planned out. And then many times we're helping with, you know, getting the guests on. You know, let's look at your networking list. Who do you want to have on and how can we help you facilitate that communication, the guest preparation and making the actual recording process as easy as possible for folks? You know, you and I both use an interface that's very easy to get on. You're using was it Tricast here. Is that what we're both on?
Yeah.
So Tricast, Squadcast, Riverside FM–there's a bunch of them that really helped make the recording process very high quality and very easy, no matter who you are, where you are, as long as you've got a relatively decent internet connection. Yeah, and we help facilitate those with live direction, sometimes, helping people actually kind of feel comfortable, relax them. We do episode preparation sometimes and actually create the outlines for episodes for companies and working with their marketing team to make it easier for them to just have a nice flow of every episode. And of course, any kind of host or guest training when it comes down to the actual vocal or interview side of things. It's really a matter of finding out what are the needs, what are the desires, and creating the right solutions to fill it. There's no cookie cutter solution.
Yeah. And are most of your clients looking to develop leads for like a lead funnel or what are the outcomes that sort of the tangible business outcomes that you're typically focused on with clients?
The tangible outcomes that clients are usually looking to focus on are multifold. Podcasting of this particular kind is a beautiful combination of relationship marketing, influence marketing, and content marketing. So we're looking to have guests chosen strategically that are not necessarily leads for their company–there's a whole philosophy of podcasting that you interview people you want to have as clients. That's not really where we live. The companies that we work with are well-established. They're doing very, very well in their fields. And this is really a move from having a brand to becoming thought leaders in an industry. So it has more to do with influence and high quality content than it does with directly getting leads.
But that being said, it usually–well, actually, it always–it always ends up in developing leads, because collaborations come out of the guests that you have on the show, out of the visibility that you have, out of the elevation in the industry of now becoming a media presence, all of those things happen, and it is largely because podcasting opens doors when it comes to relationships. You know, our clients are always looking to have high quality guests on their show, and then following up with those guests afterwards to help deepen that relationship and develop collaboration inevitably adds leads to additional opportunities and more leads 100% of the time.
Yeah. And what recommendations do you have for folks in terms of kind of picking subjects, things that you're going to weave into your conversations, finding guests? I mean, how do you go from, “Hey, I want to start a podcast, I want to, you know, have these sort of business outcomes,” to actually getting things scheduled and figuring out what you're going to talk about?
Oh, okay, that's a big world. So let's break it down just into a couple of first steps. One is to look at your values. What do you want to be known for? You know, who are you in in the world? What does your company want to be known for? And what are your brand values, the pillars that you operate by that you want to make sure it get communicated out to an audience?
Then there's a little bit of a Venn diagram. You've got your brand values and your culture, and then you have what you're really good at, you know, what's your areas of focus, and you're going to overlap those two areas on each other. And then the third area that you're going to your trifecta, a little three circle Venn diagram is going to be how do you want to communicate it?
So when you're talking about podcasting, you have to have somebody on your team who's got a proclivity towards a microphone. In some way, shape or form, they have to have a desire for it. Because otherwise you're going to end up you know, like, like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. “Bueller, Bueller? Bueller?” It's got to be dynamic, right? You somebody who is inclined. So that you know, so then you got your format of your show. So you've got those three pieces that you want overlap to find kind of your sweet spot in podcasting. And I will say, that's where you start. Podcasting is one of those things, just like I hate to say it, a website. That is, you're always evolving over time, and you're going to have seasons. You're going to have segments, you're going to evolve it over time. So you got to start with where you're most comfortable and most seasoned in your expertise, and then you're going to evolve and grow it from there.
Tina, this has been a pleasure if people want to find out more about you about the work that you do, what's the best way to get that information?
You can just hop over to twinflamesstudios.com and we are there. There's samples of our work. You can reach us there and we're happy to connect with you and explore, no matter where you're at in the process.
That's great. I will make sure that all the links are in the show notes here. Tina, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you, Bruce.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Be sure to subscribe using your favorite podcast app, so you don't miss our future episodes. See you next time.
About Scaling Up ServicesScaling Up Services is a podcast devoted to helping founders, partners, CEOs, key executives, and managers of service-based businesses scale their companies faster and with less drama. For more information and a list of recent episodes, please visit www.scalingupservices.com.
About Eckfeldt & AssociatesEckfeldt & Associates is a strategic coaching and advisory firm based in New York City and servicing growth companies around the world. Founded and led by Inc. 500 CEO Bruce Eckfeldt, E&A helps founders, CEOs, and leadership teams develop highly differentiated business strategies and create high-performance leadership teams who can execute with focus and rigor. Leveraging the Scaling Up, 3HAG, and Predictive Index toolsets, the firm has worked with a wide range of dynamic industries including technology, professional services, real estate, healthcare, pharmaceutical, and cannabis/hemp. For more information, please visit www.eckfeldt.com or email at info@eckfeldt.com.
Did you know one of the most powerful ways you can connect with your clients is through podcasting? You can learn more about the benefits of podcasting, what questions you need to answer before you begin your podcast, and how Twin Flames Studios helps get your voice into more ears on my guest interview with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast.(Scaling Up Services Podcast with Bruce Eckfeldt, October 2021)
Tina spoke with Bruce Eckfeldt on the Scaling Up Services podcast to discuss how podcasts hone your brand, provide evergreen marketing content, and create deeper relationships.
In this episode, you'll learn:
Why audio is one of the most intimate mediums for storytelling
The top questions to ask before you start your podcast
How podcasts can revitalize your marketing and expand your reach
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Welcome, everyone. This is Scaling Up Services. I'm Bruce Eckfeldt. I'm your host. Our guest today isTina Dietz. She is the founder at Twin Flames Studios. We're going to talk to her about the work that she does with companies helping them with creating content, with promotion. This is a really kind of interesting topic. I think so many service companies based their marketing, based their sales and lead development, based on thought leadership and getting content out in the world. And there's so many different types of content and so many different ways you can do it. I really think they–obviously I love podcasting–but you know, podcasts, audiobooks, you know, spoken word kind of content, there's so many things you can do with it. There's so many things you can use to generate awareness, generate thought leadership, generate leads. I'm excited for this and excited to hear Tina’s story and how she got into this this world of audio content production and what she's been doing with service companies. So, with that, Tina, welcome to the program.
Tina DietzHey, Bruce, thanks for having me.
It's a pleasure having you on. So before we dive into what you're doing with Twin Flames right now and stuff, why don't we talk a little bit about you and get a sense of your background? Give us the story. What was your professional journey? And how did you get into what you're doing today?
Well, like most entrepreneurs, it's fairly stupid. It's just like, “Well, how the hell did this happen?” Yeah, yeah. And that's, and that's what we hear more than everything. If you had asked me, you know, when I was growing up, if, you know, in 25 years or whatever, you're going to own a company that produces audio content in the land of thought leadership for service-based companies. I'm sorry, what? What, what? It didn't even exist, right? You know, at the time?
So my upbringing was I had a younger sibling–that was a business. My parents owned a business that they started when I was three years old. It was my younger sibling, and I hated it. It was a wood burning stove and fireplace business. So real sexy, awesome. And basically, that was my constant companion growing up. So I was steeped like a tea bag in entrepreneurship. From a very young age, I started answering phones when I was four and going to trade shows when I was six, I do a whole talk will have to do another time maybe on how I found my purpose in life through the Ginsu knife demonstration at a local fair. So that’s a whole thing, that's the whole thing. And, you know, I never really thought I'd own a business, but I became a therapist–for a number of reasons. Childhood was not a great place. But you know, lessons learned. It's one of those things. And I've spent a lot of time in the world of personal development, in leadership and all of that. So cultivating myself, of course, created in me a desire to see what else could be done for other people.
That led me to coaching and consulting, which then ended up leading me to podcasting and ultimately to audio production. Basically, through a paid hobby I had as a voice actor. You know, I'm an entrepreneur, we can't have regular hobbies, we have to have hobbies that pay us. That's the way it works. We can't have normal hobbies. So I was a voice actor on the side and taking some classes and masterclasses in audiobook narration. And I had this chocolate and peanut butter moment, this light bulb, aha, that, “Oh, my God, why aren't all my clients and colleagues who are doing best selling campaigns and producing books, why aren't they doing audiobooks?” And that was, as Michael Gerber from The E Myth says, you know, my “entrepreneurial seizure” that led me to investigate the world of audio and led me to a big gap in the market and dove into that.
I took over my business within a year of starting to offer services in this big market gap of done-for-you audiobooks, and also the corporate side of podcasting. And that is kind of was the best decision that I ever made. And so I went from basically being a solopreneur, consultant who'd worked with more than 20 industries in eight countries to being the CEO of a company that now produces content in the land of audio that changes lives and hearts and minds for service-based companies and making sure that they're having this beautiful, human, authentic voice of their company that comes through this medium of audio.
Yeah, I'm curious. You've had a couple of different kind of pivots in your commercial world and career what are some of the things that you had to learn or had to kind of change about your thinking, your leadership, your approach during those pivots?
Bruce, I thought you said this was only a half hour podcast.
The top two. Just the top two.
The top two. One: choose who gets in your ear very carefully, very carefully. I'm very much of a happy puppy kind of person. I'm just like, “Yeah, let's do it. Let's change the world. Let's make it happen.” I have a lot of enthusiasm and energy and kind of that visionary habit–you see something and you want to make it happen. And it took me a long time to really learn how to vet the people that I was working with, or who I was throwing in with, because I assumed for a long time, in a very naive way, that everyone had the same values that I did around integrity and communication, and, you know, working together and making sure everybody wins. And it doesn't always work that day. Most people, most people, 99% of people on the planet are doing their best. But you know, problems and challenges that come up, don't always bring out the best in people. Sometimes it brings out the worst in people. And so learning how to create relationships over time and cultivate those relationships carefully has been a huge game changer in my world to keep things consistent and growing in the right direction.
And the other piece of the puzzle has been, you know, doing my own inner work. I'd say all the time that we were born with two voices: the voice you speak with and the voice that speaks to you. And working on the voice that speaks to me has made the biggest difference in anything that I've done as a leader, as a business owner, as a partner, a wife, a mom, you know, on any of that, to cultivate that inner world–and I could do many, many, many hours, and all the things that have happened there. But suffice to say it's been a journey.
That's a really great, that's a great realization. And yeah, I think it's, you know, time is your most precious commodity and where you spend it, you know, how you spend it, who you spend it with, are all kinds of things that are really going to influence your success and what you end up doing. Tell me a little bit about kind of why audio content? I mean, what's your kind of take on the world? You know, that we're in today? Why is audio content so powerful, so important? Why have you chosen to focus on it?
Well, going back to what I said a moment ago about our internet, our voices, it's something every human being on the planet is born with. And it's something that cannot be taken away. And speaking, as someone who has felt in the past that my voice was taken away and was suppressed, having that voice and having a place at the table to have that voice heard, is incredibly valuable. And so, everything that I have done, and what we do as a company with Twin Flames, is designed to give people a place at the table so that their voices are heard. And then it creates this incredible ripple effect that you know, podcasts and audiobooks are some of the lowest hanging fruit on the planet for people to start changing their lives.
If we can be a part of more leadership voices and more positive voices and more great information, reaching people all over the world, so that they can start to change their lives. That is a really powerful place to be. It is really about making the world a better place one kind of drip of audio at a time. And audio is very, very, very intimate compared to most other forms of media. It's single focus. Most people listen to audio right into their ear. So there is a neurological connection that's very powerful between, you know, the earbud I have in my ear, and the center of my brain, the amygdala, the hippocampus, all of those things. It's not just higher brain functions being impacted by the voice. And so there's an intimacy created in an impact that's really important. And storytelling, of course, is incredibly powerful worldwide. It's something that connects all of humanity. So when we bring all these factors together, neurological, you know, storytelling, how we're wired, the universal power of the human voice to create relationship–it's a very, very powerful medium. And it can be used in so many different ways and sliced and diced, and at the pace we're living at, you know, audio is the most portable form of media. You can listen when you can't read you can listen when you can't watch. So you know, it's never gone away. It's never going to go away. And all of those things together make it what I consider the perfect storm for perfect content.
Yeah, I was like that idea that audio content literally gets you in your prospect’s head.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got it.
So what are all the kinds of formats these days? I mean, we kind of went from you know, I date myself accidentally when I say I'm listening to a book on tape or something.
I know, right? Me too.
It's morphed so many times, like what is your kind of how do you kind of lay out the scope or the types of audio content that that you have at your disposal these days?
Well, we usually start with a primary form of content, which is generally a podcast. Podcasting, of course, is something that is hot right now. I’m on one as we speak, and it provides a nice bulk of content to start with, and a framework to start with. So unlike a video, the average video watcher will watch two minutes, but the average podcast listener will listen for 40 minutes.
And it's actually much harder to create short form content than it is slightly longer form content. We have thoughts, you know, curating what we say, you know, the brevity or like cutting things down to its core is much more challenging than this kind of a conversational format. And so, it allows people to be very natural, and very expansive in what they're talking about to dig into nitty gritty and to know that the listener is still going to be interested more than two minutes in, so you're not trying to pack things in. So we start with a longer form 20-30 minute podcast, usually sometimes longer, sometimes shorter, but that's on average what it is. And that gives us a lovely bulk of content to work with.
From there, there's all different ways to slice and dice that type of content, repurpose it, reuse it. And the authenticity that comes through when you're using audio and using this type of format is really important to reach people on a deeper basis, rather than just an informational basis.
Yeah. And when you look at companies, what are I guess, what are some of the companies or situations that are best served with audio content? Like who can really benefit from this form of content?
Well, we love working with relationship-focused, service-based companies. People who, when they're working with their clients, they have long-term relationships with their clients. For example, companies, which seem very dry, but there's a lot of content available in the financial world, in insurance, for example, education of varying kinds, and even things like retail, retail conglomerates, and things like that, that are creating more experiences. Travel can be served in this way, as well, although it does, definitely does need to be paired with the visual aspect as well. But it can be really, really, really beautiful. You will see a lot of influencer podcasting, that's generally not our super cup of tea.
We do a lot of work in the leadership space, though, helping to humanize brands that are large, and give the brand an avatar because we don't really do business with faceless, nameless corporations. We want to do business with people. So being able to communicate brand values and culture and leadership and innovation through the avatar of a podcast host is extremely powerful. Another industry that benefits a lot from podcasting is healthcare. And all of these have constraints with compliance and communication and legal and all of that. But we're able to navigate all of those waters, as well.
Yeah, yeah. So what are some of the other challenges? If you are interested in developing audio content? Like what do you need to kind of consider or think about setup?
The lift is largely at the beginning when you're–well with any type of content, right, so you have to decide that has enough value that you're going to spend the brain capacity and the bandwidth and the time to work with a company like ours, so that we can help you shape that voice and shape the type of content that's really going to benefit you. So choosing that it's going to be a priority.
And then having deep, intimate communication and regular awesome content are things that you really want to do, you also need to decide in terms of you know–and we work with our companies on this–like who's going to be hosting, who's your avatar, who's your people or person that you're going to be featuring. And there's a lot of creative ways to work with that scenario, as well. Everything from solo hosts to two hosts to a panel discussion and everything in between. There's, there's a lot of different ways to manage those kinds of questions, particularly if there's multiple people inside of a company who want to be at the forefront being that avatar for the company, that's all completely manageable.
Another thing the company really needs to decide is if their marketing department, and their team, how we're going to dovetail this with their other strategic initiatives. Podcasting should be one piece and audio should be a piece of a larger strategic picture for a company. It should never be a band-aid or just an outlier. It needs to be integrated because it is something that has high strategic value, and can augment or replace creating content in other areas like blog posts, social media post images, articles for industry publications, and even events and getting used in events in different ways. So, there's a lot of applications and being willing to dive into the strategy is super important.
And what goes into that strategy? What questions are you asking or what do companies need to think about, you know, in terms of understanding kind of the bigger picture strategy before they really get into, you know, executing a particular kind of audio content strategy?
Yeah, we like to get into working with their marketing team. and finding out what are their core values that they're looking to communicate. What is that mission? What is their vision for their company, and then building out kind of an avatar of their host, not of their audience, but of their host. You know, if you had to personify your company, who is kind of that person and that spokesperson to do that? That's certainly an area that we start with, we also need to look at, as I mentioned, their current strategic initiatives. What's already working for them in terms of their marketing? How can podcasting build upon that and make it even more robust? And what are their pain points that we can address that are challenging?
So one of the pain points we run into a lot with companies is just the generation of content to begin with, particularly from a very busy team. A larger company, you know, when you ask somebody to go and say, “Hey, would you write a blog post on this?” somebody who's a technician or a salesperson or whatever, they may not be a writer to do that. Using interview techniques, we can extract and pull really wonderful, real conversational information from team members that can be pulled into podcasting content, or then even turned into articles or ebooks or, you know, other types of content, as well. And the creation process becomes 100 times easier. And this is, of course, scalable for any size company to do that, whether we're working with a sales team, or we're working with, you know, a CPA firm.
Yeah. You mentioned a couple times the idea of leveraging the content, what are some ways that you can kind of use the, the initial content, leverage it in different ways? You know, repurpose it. What are some things that companies should be thinking about when they develop a kind of a content strategy, starting with audio content?
Sure, I'll kind of walk you through a whole process, potential process flow on that. So let's say your podcast gets made, and the audio content is going out to 20-30 different audio distribution platforms, everything from Spotify to Apple podcasts and whatnot. So it lives all out in the world of public podcasting. Well, then the full edited transcript of that podcast, along with an embedded player, which has a number of features on it that are really helpful for the listener, click to tweets, and custom captioned images are all embedded on the website, usually in the form of a blog post. So we have, first, fresh content that goes into your blog.
And secondly, this is all gorgeous for your search engine optimization. Google loves fresh, long form conversational content, because Google is moving towards AI for their search engine optimization. This longer form conversational podcast content is so helpful for SEO, particularly with all the bells and whistles to kind of go along with it. So, from there, you can take the we have always have a little summary at the top and we have our quotes that are pulled out. Those are repurposed into social media posts, usually either on say a company page on LinkedIn that are then shared with the employees, shared with the team so that then they all can share those posts as well.
We also pull out short clips, little highlights from the podcast and turn them into what are called audiograms, which are little shareable, closed-caption dynamic videos. Those are also shared on social media. And one of my other favorite places to use audiograms is to embed them in related blog posts on the site that aren't necessarily the podcast episode, but maybe related content. So then you are cross-pollinating your website content and also creating a more dynamic experience for somebody visiting your website, because now you've got this lovely little 30-second to one minute long video that's breaking up the content on a related post and maybe getting people interested in staying on your website longer. Yeah, so those are just a few of the things that you can do.
We even recommend that whoever is the guest on the podcast, or even the host, depending on the situation, repurpose the link to their podcast on the publication section of their LinkedIn profile. A lot of people only use articles or blog posts, but you can use your podcast interviews as part of your publications list. And that helps build out, of course, your LinkedIn presence. For those folks of us who are in the B2B world or in the, you know, the business world. It's really nice to have that additional fresh content on your LinkedIn profile to kind of keep you top of mind for people.
So those are just a couple. Those are just a couple elements. And the other big one we see a lot of is turning podcast content into industry publication articles. So basically having writers–either folks we've introduced you to, or folks on their team. One of our companies that we work with primary tax solutions, they're a specialty tax company, and they've now had six articles based on their podcasts–content produced and published in publications like Accounting Today.
Yeah, I love that idea is like you create one piece and then you can find lots of different ways. Oh, my goodness repurposing it makes it so much easier or just create so much more leverage in terms of the work you do. What are some of the challenges? Certainly, when I started podcasting, you know, it wasn't, there was some hesitation and trepidation about kind of really getting into this and putting myself out there like that. What do you do to help folks who, you know, are considering this, but they're not quite sure they have maybe some, you know, maybe a little bit of fear around some of this stuff. You know, creating this content, really putting it out there–what are ways in which you help them kind of evaluate and create an opportunity for them to really get into this space?
It really just, it lives in the world of conversation. So, Bruce, would it be accurate to say that, you know, one of your big considerations was time?
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah, yeah. And that's really the biggest thing we have to talk about is, where are your priorities, and where is your time going to be, because even if we're handling 90% of what has to go into the podcast production, we're still going to need, you know, some time for the marketing team and of course, the host and things like that to spend some time in that arena. So it just really has to be a priority, and they need to be well suited. So there's a lot of evaluation that goes on at the beginning, everything from talking about, like I said, the creation of kind of this avatar. We even use thought leadership archetypes that we have developed based on the 12 Jungian archetypes to help kind of shape the brand of the podcast in conjunction with the company's brand to make sure that there's this consistent voice.
So everything that we do really lives in relationship and inquiry and curiosity. And and then from there, the strategy, but we come at it–I would say that, you know, a lot of times I'm practicing my “Business Buddha” and that means I come from a place of non-attachment. It really has to be all about the clients and not about us and seeing what's going to be best. And sometimes it's not the best solution for that company, or it's not the right time. Sometimes it's the absolute perfect time, and the company is absolutely 100% ready to go. Sometimes there's a little bit of a delay until a few ducks get in a row and we say, “Hey, you know, you really should have X, Y, and Z handled before we start this process.” So it always has to be in the best interest of the company, so that we can get the best product, because, as you know, Bruce, podcasting isn't a one and done deal. It's a long tail game. Yeah, you know, so we got to have time.
Yeah, no, let's dig into that just a little bit. ‘Cause I find I see a lot of podcasts out there that get to like episode eight.
Yeah.
You know, big plans, big ideas, and then, you know, just, you know, a big initial push, but, they just kind of fade quickly. What are some things that can help you to prevent that or will help you, you know, kind of be in it for the long game?
Well, most of our companies, we recommend starting with a bi-weekly schedule, instead of a weekly schedule. You can always add episodes. You can always add frequency as you go. But bi-weekly gives enough frequency for folks to really get content out on a regular basis without it necessarily being an overwhelming time commitment. We also work to develop out the content calendar, and make sure that we've actually got, you know, 12 or 24 potential episodes kind of planned out. And then many times we're helping with, you know, getting the guests on. You know, let's look at your networking list. Who do you want to have on and how can we help you facilitate that communication, the guest preparation and making the actual recording process as easy as possible for folks? You know, you and I both use an interface that's very easy to get on. You're using was it Tricast here. Is that what we're both on?
Yeah.
So Tricast, Squadcast, Riverside FM–there's a bunch of them that really helped make the recording process very high quality and very easy, no matter who you are, where you are, as long as you've got a relatively decent internet connection. Yeah, and we help facilitate those with live direction, sometimes, helping people actually kind of feel comfortable, relax them. We do episode preparation sometimes and actually create the outlines for episodes for companies and working with their marketing team to make it easier for them to just have a nice flow of every episode. And of course, any kind of host or guest training when it comes down to the actual vocal or interview side of things. It's really a matter of finding out what are the needs, what are the desires, and creating the right solutions to fill it. There's no cookie cutter solution.
Yeah. And are most of your clients looking to develop leads for like a lead funnel or what are the outcomes that sort of the tangible business outcomes that you're typically focused on with clients?
The tangible outcomes that clients are usually looking to focus on are multifold. Podcasting of this particular kind is a beautiful combination of relationship marketing, influence marketing, and content marketing. So we're looking to have guests chosen strategically that are not necessarily leads for their company–there's a whole philosophy of podcasting that you interview people you want to have as clients. That's not really where we live. The companies that we work with are well-established. They're doing very, very well in their fields. And this is really a move from having a brand to becoming thought leaders in an industry. So it has more to do with influence and high quality content than it does with directly getting leads.
But that being said, it usually–well, actually, it always–it always ends up in developing leads, because collaborations come out of the guests that you have on the show, out of the visibility that you have, out of the elevation in the industry of now becoming a media presence, all of those things happen, and it is largely because podcasting opens doors when it comes to relationships. You know, our clients are always looking to have high quality guests on their show, and then following up with those guests afterwards to help deepen that relationship and develop collaboration inevitably adds leads to additional opportunities and more leads 100% of the time.
Yeah. And what recommendations do you have for folks in terms of kind of picking subjects, things that you're going to weave into your conversations, finding guests? I mean, how do you go from, “Hey, I want to start a podcast, I want to, you know, have these sort of business outcomes,” to actually getting things scheduled and figuring out what you're going to talk about?
Oh, okay, that's a big world. So let's break it down just into a couple of first steps. One is to look at your values. What do you want to be known for? You know, who are you in in the world? What does your company want to be known for? And what are your brand values, the pillars that you operate by that you want to make sure it get communicated out to an audience?
Then there's a little bit of a Venn diagram. You've got your brand values and your culture, and then you have what you're really good at, you know, what's your areas of focus, and you're going to overlap those two areas on each other. And then the third area that you're going to your trifecta, a little three circle Venn diagram is going to be how do you want to communicate it?
So when you're talking about podcasting, you have to have somebody on your team who's got a proclivity towards a microphone. In some way, shape or form, they have to have a desire for it. Because otherwise you're going to end up you know, like, like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off. “Bueller, Bueller? Bueller?” It's got to be dynamic, right? You somebody who is inclined. So that you know, so then you got your format of your show. So you've got those three pieces that you want overlap to find kind of your sweet spot in podcasting. And I will say, that's where you start. Podcasting is one of those things, just like I hate to say it, a website. That is, you're always evolving over time, and you're going to have seasons. You're going to have segments, you're going to evolve it over time. So you got to start with where you're most comfortable and most seasoned in your expertise, and then you're going to evolve and grow it from there.
Tina, this has been a pleasure if people want to find out more about you about the work that you do, what's the best way to get that information?
You can just hop over to twinflamesstudios.com and we are there. There's samples of our work. You can reach us there and we're happy to connect with you and explore, no matter where you're at in the process.
That's great. I will make sure that all the links are in the show notes here. Tina, this has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you, Bruce.
Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. Be sure to subscribe using your favorite podcast app, so you don't miss our future episodes. See you next time.
About Scaling Up ServicesScaling Up Services is a podcast devoted to helping founders, partners, CEOs, key executives, and managers of service-based businesses scale their companies faster and with less drama. For more information and a list of recent episodes, please visit www.scalingupservices.com.
About Eckfeldt & AssociatesEckfeldt & Associates is a strategic coaching and advisory firm based in New York City and servicing growth companies around the world. Founded and led by Inc. 500 CEO Bruce Eckfeldt, E&A helps founders, CEOs, and leadership teams develop highly differentiated business strategies and create high-performance leadership teams who can execute with focus and rigor. Leveraging the Scaling Up, 3HAG, and Predictive Index toolsets, the firm has worked with a wide range of dynamic industries including technology, professional services, real estate, healthcare, pharmaceutical, and cannabis/hemp. For more information, please visit www.eckfeldt.com or email at info@eckfeldt.com.
Tina Dietz talks to Lisa and Eric Pezik about online lead generation strategies for non-salesy folks that actually generate leads.Facebook Live, 2020
Tina Dietz talks to Lisa and Eric Pezik about strategies non-salesy folks can use to increase their visibility, draw in new audiences, and just overall generate more leads:
The important difference between lead generation and sales
How lead generation is often a long-term process
What looking for instant results can cost you in the long run
How “not-so-perfect” ads work better than professional ones
Why perseverance is key to lead generation success
Watch here:
Today, what we're talking about is this big old buzzword we've been hearing it in business constantly. It's gotten really intense this last year: Lead generation – online lead generation.
And particularly with a big surge in interest in LinkedIn. That's been where there’s been a lot of the lead generation conversation. But it ties in with conversations about Facebook ads, and Amazon ads, and Google AdWords and all of these places, so we're going to be talking about lead generation—what you really need to know, particularly if you're not a salesy person.
If you're somebody who has an established business, but the online world doesn't quite work for you, you're more of a relationship kind of person, you're more interested in “belly-to-belly” conversations, but you'd like to be developing more business online in a way that feels good—that feels like you, that doesn't feel like markety marketers marketing to marketers, as I often say.
I have here Lisa and Eric, my beautiful colleagues, hailing from the southern Ontario area—someplace I miss very much, that I used to spend an awful lot of time in. They have an absolutely gorgeous, gorgeous marketing agency that we've been sharing with our clients and colleagues, because I'm just so impressed with the work that you guys do. So thank you for joining me.
Aww! Thank you for having us!
Yeah! You guys have a number of different links—a number of different websites—so we'll put those in the comments as we go along. Please note that I tagged both Lisa and Eric on their respective pages in the description of this video as well. So that's all I want to say about that; let's get into chatting about some good stuff here.
Actually I would love to have the audience get to know you guys during this conversation, rather than ask you what your background is and what you do. They can look you up—you’ve got an about page, all that good stuff.
Let's get to the meat of the matter, which is, let's talk about the difference between lead generation and sales, because I run into this in conversations with people all the time. They don't know the difference between lead generation and sales. So Eric, would you start us off with that?
Yeah, absolutely. It's such a common thing that people talk about, and I really connect with this. I don't think that sales is sales—when it's really not a sale. What I mean by that is, you say, “Eric, I'm going to be in your neck of the woods, and I'm looking for a really great sushi place.” I'm going to refer you to the sushi place that I love, and I'm gonna say, “You gotta check it out! this restaurant, it's amazing. You'll love it, they have killer sashimi, they have amazing rolls, here's my favorite roll.”
Am I being salesy? Not at all. That’s sales, right? The lead gen side of that is the complete opposite. Now it's, “Okay, well, how do I get someone as the restaurant owner into my sushi place?” Completely different. Right now, you need to build trust, you're gonna have to be in front of people when they're looking for sushi, and they're googling for sushi. And that’s totally different. That's the lead gen side.
I feel like what Tina was talking about, how people want to be belly-to-belly, and they feel like there's the either/or: They feel like you're either belly-to-belly, or you're salesy. You're either a relationship marketer, or you do lead generation. They feel like lead generation has no belly-to-belly “relationship personality.”And that's what we do! We're not just going to grab random people off the street and throw them in the sushi restaurant and say, “Hey, I hope you like this.” We do all the legwork to get those people who love sushi, who love Toronto, who love the culture, who love the type of sushi—there—and then as the business owner, is to do what you do best, which is serve the pants off people and build those relationships. Serve the sushi pants off people!
Sushi pants!?
Maybe that's a thing!
It probably is. #SushiPants. Let's do it.
But people don't get to serve the sushi pants off people. They're so busy trying to find those people that want sushi pants, who come few and far between.
That's where this whole, “Lead generation didn't work for me, it's too much money, it's too much effort” idea comes from. No, lead generation works—with people that know what they're doing. What drives me crazy is the, “You’ll learn how to set up an ad and one hour and you'll be up and you'll be making money,” and everyone makes it sound so easy.
Yeah, so it's the salesy part. This is—I'll say it again, markety marketers marketing to marketers. It sounds like the fitness industry, you know—“Start a business in 30 days,” “Write a book in a weekend,” “Start a podcast overnight,” “Generate leads in your sleep”—all of these things can be done, but there is a quality conversation here.
It depends on what you are trying to create, both short-term and long-term. It also depends on what you already have in place. So I think it's important for us to take a look at what is necessary before you start lead generation. What do you already need to have in place?
For example, I work with a lot of authors, and I don't recommend lead generation, because all they have is a book. They don't have a product, they don't have a back-end yet. They're publishing a book for credibility, and there's a lot you can do with that in terms of book marketing, but there's a difference between book marketing and business marketing. So when you're working with people, what are some of the pitfalls that you run into? What should people have ready?
You don't know what you don't know. People come to us and they're like, “We want to run an ad to this, and we're like, “Okay, where's your landing page?” “Oh, I don't have one.” “Where's your social account?” “Oh, I don't have one.” “Where's your website?” “Oh, I don't have one.” “What are your products?” “I only have a book.” “Okay, then what if no one wants your book? Where are we going to take them?” Because lead generation is not a once and done, throw up some ads for 30 days, make you a million dollars. It is an ongoing process, that only gets better and better the longer you stick with it.
Everyone's comfort level is different. So for me, I'm okay to spend $500 one month and $500 the next month and have zero sales, knowing that in the third month, I'm going to make two, three, four thousand dollars in sales, or I'm going to make that thousand dollars. I'm okay to hang with it longer, knowing that I'm building relationships. Other people are like, “If I spend $500, I want $500 back that same day. I spent $5 today, I want a $5 sale that day.”
And most business doesn't work like that. Let's face it, it really doesn't work like that. You have to test, you have to find out what people want, what lands, what works, what doesn't work, and you can only do that by doing it.
Right! That's me—I don't want to waste your dollars testing. I want to take your ad spend dollars and go. So you've got to know clearly who you are, what you do, what you offer, and have somewhat already established a brand, a business, a tagline, a voice, a message, a product, that you’ve somewhat trialled and run through on.
I like to say on Facebook, for example, people have got to see you. You’ve got to go live, you’ve got to be serving, and giving, and showing up, and being visible. You're like a ghost and then all of a sudden, you're like, “Buy my s***!”
Exactly! People are like, “Who are you? Why are you here? What are you doing?” Particularly if it's a personal brand. Do you think we have a little bit more leeway on a product than a personal brand? I see new products pop up in my Facebook feed all the time.
That comes more down to if it's a product, you really want to talk about the pain points and the benefits. Why are you different? It's very similar. It's just when you're a personal brand, it's about you. People buy on you, versus buying the product—”Why should I buy this product over that product? Here's why.”
And the product is the experience! Nobody cares that the drill can drill into the hole in three seconds flat. People care that if I'm going to do a DIY project, I'm not going to kill my child when the playground system comes falling down on them, because this drill works so good. Or my honey is gonna love me, because I get this nice thing done in a day, as opposed to a year because I can't figure my stuff out.
The product is the experience. The service is the experience, but it's more the experience with a person. So people see you, they feel you, they know you, they understand you.
Yeah, so in both cases, it is a storytelling experience. You guys talk about this on your website, I talk about it all the time in my work. What's the story that you're telling? What's the journey you're taking people on? But yet, even if you're telling a personal story, the story really isn't about the storyteller, it's about how it relates to the people that you're talking to, and what's important to them. It's creating that connection. All storytelling, the purpose is to create connection and to draw people in into you.
So I think that the preparation of that, what you're talking about—do you already have something proven? I think a lot of newer entrepreneurs get scared by this, because they have had all these messages that, “Oh, if you build authority by writing a book, or if you suddenly become a coach,” (We'll talk about that another time!)—but really, “What are you good at?”
There's a little bit of chicken or egg thing that happens when you don't have a proven track record yet of doing that kind of thing. And I think that's where building a network and building referrals—a lot of the relationship work—the podcast guesting we help people with. Certainly, the book side of things can help with all of that, but it has to be paired with all kinds of other things. And I know that you guys have a full service agency, so some of these things—the website building, the storytelling, the branding, all of that—if someone's not ready for lead generation, you’ve got to back it up and help them with all of those things first. But what it really comes down to is, can you deliver on what you say?
Yeah! And being realistic. If you don't have all that figured out, but you know this is gonna work, you know you're gonna follow through, then be realistic that the first two or three months that we're driving leads to you, we're doing that “figuring out process” for you, which is worth every penny. It might take us three months, but it might have taken you three years.
Oh, definitely.
So even though maybe you're not making sales, even though your ROI is sales, it's figuring out what's landing with your audience—and you're getting more clarity in the process. So it shouldn't keep you from doing it, because either way, it's a win-win. It's just you’ve got to be realistic with, “What is that win?” Everybody goes to money in their pocket. That's the only thing that they say makes it work or doesn't work. But you’ve got to change your mentality when it comes to that new generation.
And being realistic with what is the lifetime value of the client. We get that a lot. They don't realise that you might work with us for three months and say, “Oh my God, I haven't had a sale,” but then three months later, you might have fifty or a hundred sales that happen because that person followed you, and then when they decided to actually buy whatever you're offering, you were the one that was there from the beginning six months ago, when they had that thought, “I'm gonna play in my backyard, I'm gonna do a landscaping job.” Well, you don't just flick a switch and go, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna invest $30,000 in my backyard. It’s a six month, twelve month process.
Yeah! We had a lot of that with this current state of as we're filming this, we're still in the middle of the pandemic, and everyone's like, “Shut down my ads, I'm done. I can't run ads.” We're like, “Wait, what? Why?” “Well nobody's doing nothing. nobody's buying nothing. Shut ‘er all down.”
So not true.
Yeah. What's gonna happen if you all of a sudden disappear, and then you all of a sudden want to reappear again?
Then you’re messing with people’s heads.
A lot of people are spending time on their social media in front of their computer, researching. Planning. You don't want to run ads? Says who? So again, you gotta think about what's the end game? What's the end goal? That lifetime value. They might not be ready today to purchase your service or buy your product, but six months from now, they may be!
It's a whole thing about sticky branding, right? People do remember things. They're more likely to look things up that they've seen in the past, or they've heard in the past, or that have been endorsed by other people that they do trust.
If you've already got an ad campaign going, and it has been producing results, it's the people that I've seen in the last six months, as we've been dealing with this pandemic, who have really doubled down and pivoted appropriately, depending on their industry, and really made it even more about relationships, even more about serving people, even more about being helpful, that have done really, really well.
I know you guys have seen an expansion in your company, we've seen an expansion in our business. We're in a position, being fully online businesses, we're used to doing business online, that are in a position to help companies do things that aren't in-person. That is something that has been a little nerve wracking for some of the companies that we're working with, because they are highly professional and financial companies, private equity, very sensitive areas.
It may take a little while for them to make the leap, but once you get into a groove, once people start to trust who you are and what you're saying, there's a flow that happens with these lead generations. People can tell when you're being authentic, and when you're not. Even when it might be some type of automation or nurture campaign that may go out automatically. The storytelling that you guys do is so conversational, and so transparent, and I think that's what makes the biggest difference in making what would normally look like marketing or advertising, feel good. That's what we all want. We need to feel good when we see this.
Yes! And that is knowing your client. Like when you hear the word “agency,” we run a social media agency, we run a marketing agency, we run a done-for-you agency—at the beginning, I remember when you were saying that, “I don't want to be called an agency! I don't even want to be associated with that word.”
Because that's like a production factory. Get you in, get you out, charge you astronomical amounts, good luck trying to get ahold of somebody. There's no belly-to-belly personalization. That's the complete opposite of us! We're so individualized, we’re so deep-dive, and I think that's where the best ads come from. When you know your client, you deep dive, you take the time to learn their stories, their brand emotions.
The not-so-perfect-ads tend to do a lot better than the perfectly makeup scripted, in front of my computer… The messy hair, walking down the street ads—people tune into because they're real. And they're relatable. You don't have to be anyone you're not, you don't have to speak like you're not. You just have to be you. And the right people connect to that.
Yeah, it comes across. It's like connecting with people that you talk to for the first time. It's either you're gonna instantly feel that compassion, if they're genuine people, or you're just gonna be like, “No, forget it. I don't relate.” And that's totally fine.
And that's why lead generation isn't a start and stop kind of initiative. You don't ever want to have that, “Oh, I'm gonna do that, I'm not gonna do that for two months, I'm gonna do another month, I'm not gonna do another one.” You’re not getting anywhere when you start and stop.
So I think when you're in that position, that lead generation is right for you, have the budget for it. How many times do we say, “Okay let's go,” and they're like, “I have no budget.”
Well, what's the budget that somebody might consider starting with? What would be, you know, a good range to start with? What should they set aside for, say, six months or a year? Just the ad spend is what I'm talking about.
We would start at like $500, and then we would scale it based on success,
Based on success, right. And so yeah, so from a $5,000 [total] marketing budget, that makes sense to me, because there's a lot of done-for-you: The iterations, the testing, the research, the keywords, the audiences. There's a lot of friggin details in the back end of that. I took a couple of classes on Facebook ads, because who hasn't? And just the back end, the interface, was enough to make me want to go blind. That is not my world.
Yeah, like we tell people—we have a team of Facebook ads experts, and that is their job, to stay current, to stay around. If you are going to run ads on your own, $500 is a great ad spend to start with. You then have to be the one every single day going in there looking, testing, tweaking, staying on top of it, because you will burn through that if you don't know what you're doing. You'll burn through that $500 faster than you clicked the button to put the ad on.
Some of the most successful people I've seen advertise on Facebook, particularly who were on the service side of things—you guys have a really fantastic specialty working with online businesses, but also working with local companies: Everything from local colleges, to gyms, to medical practices and things like that.
I think that's really impressive, because that's a big gap in the market—those types of companies. Clearly you're able to do both, but I remember in a Q&A session with this person, because they very much had an “anyone can do it” conversation. And it was like, how much are you spending on ads on a daily basis?
They were spending $700 a day on ads, and they had a team doing it. It's the same thing with these major launches, when you see all these people’s success, really important, prominent people. Jeff Walker—classic, right? The big launch guy, fantastic work, amazing work. It will take you six months to a year and $60,000 to run a full Jeff Walker launch campaign. Period.
The guy that I was learning from said, if you don't have $5,000 a day to spend on ads, you're not even playing in Facebook Ad Land. And I was like, “Did he say five dollars a day? Did he—he said $5k a day!?” I'm like, this isn't my seat, because we started with $250 a month when we started running ads to my courses and programs.
What I like is why you don't just want to guess and do it yourself, is our experts watch it. They're very quick to say, “The $500 is your budget. We've already spent like 300 bucks, it's not working. We need to try something different, we need to go somewhere else.” Like I said, you can burn through money. And that's why people say Facebook ads don't work. No—it's you didn't know what you're doing, and you burn through your money, and now you got a bad feeling about that.
Yeah, even with just building our pages on Facebook. We have a page we built organically, we've got about 200,000 followers, and it's a massive pain in the butt because Facebook is constantly changing things, so there's a lot to it.
You know, you've mentioned a couple times, the value of done-for-you services, and my company with audiobooks and podcasting—we provide done-for-you as well. One of the reasons I decided to go in that direction was a survey I ran on audiobooks when I first started experimenting with audiobook services, because like most people coming out of the consulting world and the coaching world, my first thought was, “Oh, I'll do a course, and people can do it themselves.”
I ran a survey with a bunch of my colleagues, about 50-60 people, ran them through it. There was a question that I put in there that said, “Which are you more likely to do? A. Take a course and do it yourself, B. Hire someone to do it for you, or C. Take a course, realize how much it is, then hire somebody to do it for you.” Almost everybody answered C, and put a note in about that question of, “Thank you for asking this because it actually brought to my attention that this is what I actually do.”
That's when I decided I’ve got to do done-for-you services instead. Best decision I ever made as a business owner, both because it's been great to develop the company and find out what's needed, but also because it got down to an actual need that people had.
That’s it! A necessity. The people that understand done-for-you realize the cost of an action, the cost of trying to muck through and figure it out on your own—you're not going to do it. It’s a necessity to move that mission bigger. That makes people go, “I gotta stay in my lane. I have no business tinkering around in the back end or Facebook ads thing. I have no business trying to do my own audio book thing and like, I gotta stay in my lane.” The people that make it a done-for-you service—they're good at what they do! They're not just random newbie developers; they are the best of the best of the best. It's like, “We get you where you want to go—you don't have the time. You can waste so much money so much time so much energy.”
I've done it myself, trying to do a lot of stuff myself. Let's face it, we're really smart people—we can figure a lot out. But doesn't mean you should.
And that's hard. When you're Type A, you're driven, you're good, and you're like, “I can do this—tell me I can't, I’ll show you I can,” and that's the curse of being really good. You can figure it out. You're smart, you're resourceful. You know how to ask for help. It's like that badge of, I'm gonna sit here for 27 hours. figure this out, and then for what? And it's like yeah is that battle you should be entering into—
—Or should you be spending that 27 hours having conversations with people that you could be helping, having them sign on to work with you, or bring them into your business or your company, and then having your clientele fund the done-for-you services, your marketing team, your PR your audio branding, whatever it is that you're doing, so that you don't have to.
I can't tell you how many people are like, “I have $10,000. I need your help. But oh, well, I can't work with you though, because I decided to put this into my book. Or I decided to put this into, I'm going to speak on stage—I paid to play and I'm going to speak on a stage, or I'm going on this TV interview.” The one shot wonder. There is no such thing as overnight success.
Media is so important. Having a book is important. All of these things are important. But they have to be in order.
Correct!
They need to be in order. Unfortunately, I see it a lot, too. That being said, this morning, wrote a couple of emails, referring some of my close colleagues to you guys, because I'm like, “You know what, they could really work with you guys, because they're at a point in their company—they need to not be doing it themselves, but it doesn't make sense to hire like a single marketing person.”
A single person can't do everything on their own. Having the backing of a team is really important, and finding a good marketing agency is—that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on this live today—is that I only have a few companies that I will refer people to for marketing services. That's based on my 20 years in business and having been burned and being really very suspicious—very suspicious Type A over here—on things.
I even have a referral partner of mine—today, they sent me some information about information they wanted me to put out there. And I sent it back to them some feedback: I'm like, your terms and conditions aren't clear, and your disclaimer, it actually isn't legally responsible for you to say some of those things. So I can't promote this, because my people are going to have questions that I can't answer, and you're not giving me an opportunity to send them to anyone to answer questions. You just want them to click “Buy Now.” And I'm never gonna send somebody to a “Buy Now” button that's five to fifty thousand dollars, without the opportunity for somebody to have a conversation. I wouldn't do business like that.
Yes. People don't want to take the time. You have to take the time. You have to treat it like it's your business—like that business decision is a decision that you would make in your business. And if you don't like being rushed, why would you rush somebody else?
Exactly.
Give people all the information. It might not seem like a life or death, make it or break it conversation to you, but it may be for that person staring back at the screen. We never push our people into making decisions. We educate and we take as much time as we need till they feel comfortable one way or another.
I've seen you do it! For sure.
Well, I wanted to see if I could kind of wrap up some last words of wisdom here and circle back around to this whole idea of a checklist or a couple of pieces that people need to actually make online lead generation effective. What are a few things that we really want people to know—that they ought to have, or ought to work on, and obviously they can reach out to you guys too, or reach out to me for more.
A few things. Definitely have multiple offers. Think about how you can take one particular thing and make it three different things, but yet, it's still the same thing. That's critical, because we get that a lot, where you say this thing's 99 bucks, and you think that everyone's gonna buy it because you think it's the greatest thing. At the same time, maybe that 99 bucks, instead of saying it’s $99, you turn around and say, “You know what, I'll give you free shipping.” So there's two offers right there. So think of it that way. Crafted uniquely, so when you put it out there to the public, you’ve got places to go and different things to try.
Because a lot of people will say, “It didn't work.” “What did you try?” “I put it on for 99 bucks, nobody bought it. It's the price, but this thing's worth a million bucks.” So I'd say that's number one.
Number two is, make sure you have proper branding. Make sure you have something that someone's gonna trust. We always find that people think that people aren't paying attention because they didn't click like or because they didn’t comment. Biggest BS! People are always watching. People are always paying attention. You probably have the same friends like we do where all of a sudden, we won't see friends for six months. Next thing you know, they're like, “Hey, yeah, I saw that you had oysters yesterday! Where'd you get those oysters from?” You're like, “What?!”
So just remember a big takeaway from Eric. They're always watching. It's true, though. It's absolutely true, and I think that goes back to your analogy from the beginning of our conversation about the sushi restaurant as well. You not think about having sushi for three, four or five months at a time, but when you have a craving for it, you know exactly where to go because of that recommendation that you got from a friend, or because of the ad that you saw, or the coupon you got in the in the paper or the recommendations you saw on TripAdvisor. It sticks with you, and that goes by just what you said—that sticky branding. It's about that branding that stays with you over time. Anything else?
My last thing, no matter what you think is or isn't working, stay at it. Stay at it, and get out of your own way, because you're not the one that gets to decide that. It's your buyers, it's your audience—they're the ones who will decide for you. So just stay in your pay lane and keep doing what you're doing, whatever that is. It'll end up paying off dividends in the long run. We see people give up really quickly—they'll try for two weeks, three weeks, and then we’re like, “No, no, you gotta give it like, three years before you can really say something did or didn't work.”
I give it six months.
I agree.
I know if I'm gonna say yes to running an ad, any campaign, any process, I know I'm in this for six months. It's too early to bail on it—to say it worked or didn't work. You don't have enough data.
And I was gonna say make sure everything matches. If you run it, and it doesn't look and feel—it looks and feels and sounds one way, and then they hit your landing page or your website, and it looks and feels and sounds a different way—that's going to cause an instant, people are gonna be like, “Whoa!”
Oh, no, that will cause an instant pivot to everything. I'm actually in the midst of a fitness program right now, and I know the fitness industry. I have a hard time joining programs with it because of the marketing that gets done with that. This company is no exception—I won't name them. Their products are good, and it's like, “Oh, I'm going to show you in 30 seconds how to do something,” and it takes you to a 15 minute sales webinar. Every day, an email that's like that, usually selling a supplement, selling a meal plan, it's like, “Oh, we're going to give you everything you need, we're going to give you the recipes, we're going to give you this, we're going to give you that.”
No. They're going to give you one list of recipes, and then they're gonna sell you a personalized meal plan every damn day. So this is why this personal connection and taking the time with people, and managing expectations is so important, particularly in this realm. I know we agree that transparency is so important.There's lots of places that you can go out there, my dear friends out in Facebook Land, where people are going to tell you where you want to hear. Your friends will tell you what you want to hear. Don't ask your friends for feedback on things. Ask people that you respect, that are successful, for feedback.
Go out and ask three marketing agencies to give you feedback and see what the commonality is between the three. You'll find the intersection of where you're falling down on the job. But when you're talking about doing business with a company, make sure they're willing to take the time with you. (I mean, be respectful of their time of course, we don't have all damn day!) But nonetheless, someone that's willing to work with you and is willing to shoot straight with you and say, “You're not ready for this yet. This is actually where you need to be.” It's not because they necessarily want to sell you something more, it's because they want your initiative to be successful.
Yeah, hundred percent. Lastly, I would say have a process in place for follow-up. Because even though everyone thinks lead generation equals automated sales—
—That's a story, tell the story!
Okay, so we have this lovely client who we love dearly, and she worked at a gym. She's a nutritionist, and people were just giving to her, as part of the package, amazing testimonials, a ton of success stories. A perfected process: Check, check, check. Now she's running ads to a webinar to an application to work one-to-one with her so she wants to do it on our own. Because helping all these people, getting paid X amount at the gym—that's how you know you're an entrepreneur when you're like, “Wait a second—”
“I’m pretty sure I can do this better on my own! Shouldn’t I get paid more for this?”
Right! But the legwork was done for those people—the trust was built, the qualified leads were already there, whether they liked it or not. There were people that were saying to her, “I don't even know why I'm in this office with you. I'm here because I have to be. I don't really want to do this.” They end up being her best testimonials.
But now you know, we have over 100 people that have watched that webinar and we're like, “You got a goal, but the sales—‘Oh well?’ You got to go back to those hundred people! You got to go back and say, Hey, the belly-to-belly! The personalization! What was the biggest thing that made you click into that webinar? Was there anything in there that resonated with you, anything that didn't resonate with you? What are you looking for? What are your worries and your fears about hiring someone like me? Like you? What do you need to know for us to be able to help you?”
Instead of the “Watch the webinar, do the application, click it, buy it.” You can't duplicate the same process—well you can, but there's more legwork and belly-to-belly work that has to be done. You have to follow up. So even though everyone leading to you was automated, when it's a service-based high ticket, sometimes there's a conversation that's required. When you've got 100 people that want to work with you, And you're the lag in your own way, because you don't want to have a conversation, come on.
That's a problem. You’re really shooting yourself in the foot.
Yes. You have to do this much. Don't let this be the month that makes it not work.
Yeah, you might be missing the office. Right? Like you think about the analogy behind that. The reason why her biggest success was at the gym was because she got people into her office. And that office they got a relationship, into intimacy. We all get nutrition, we all get health. We all get that we need to work out, eat better, and drink water. But you know, you need that next level—you need someone to tell you how to do it.
You need to trust someone enough to say “Yes, I'll do it with you.”
That's very true. There's a lot of choices out there. There's a tremendous amount of information.
How much money have we spent on health products? MLM. Training. And she makes the claim which is valid, and I believe her, that “I want to be the last nutritionist you ever work with.”
I love that.
“I teach you about how to do it for life. I teach you how to truly live in tune with your body.” I'm like, “And then there's 100 people that need you! Get your butt on the phone!”
Yeah, so maybe my next one of these Facebook Lives I’ll do something on closing! Because that's one of my favourites. Lead gen and sales—remember this—not the same thing. Also your website, your offers, your products—not the same thing as your marketing in your lead generation.
So all of these things are pieces of a puzzle—they're like Legos. You're building a house as colourful and as interesting and as weird as you want it to be, but that doesn't mean you don't need the architecture. So if you're looking for more architecture, for your business, and to help with the marketing, to help with the lead generation, and you really want someone who's going to tell you—”Do this, don't do that”—talk to Lisa and Eric. They'll tell you what you need to know. And I do trust wholeheartedly that you'll be fully taken care of.
I appreciate you guys being here today and joining me for this collaboration conversation here on Facebook Live. And we'll be also sharing this out with our other networks as well. So I'll see you all over “the Internets.”
Thank you so much for having us!
Oh, my pleasure. We'll talk to you soon, guys. Thanks!
Lisa Pezik
Eric Pezik
Lisa, her husband Eric Pezik, and their team specialize in done for you services with branding, content creation, funnels, and websites, with their agency Infinite Design House. They also offer SEO, blogs, social media, and lead generation with their Sales Booster Program. They do all the things you don't know how to do or don't want to do in the online space!
