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How Vocal Delivery Shapes Leadership Perception in the 2024 Presidential Election

How Vocal Delivery Shapes Leadership Perception in the 2024 Presidential Election

It's not just the words, but how they say them…

As we head into the next presidential election you'll notice that the pitch, the pause, the rise and fall of a leader’s voice captures hearts and minds just as effectively—if not more so—than the words themselves.

As I’ve noted before, “The way you sound has a profound impact on how your message is received, often more so than the content of the message itself.” Do You Sound Like a Leader? explores this in greater detail.

As we look at the vocal delivery styles of 2024 presidential candidates Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, we find that the way a leader speaks can profoundly shape public perception. For leaders, experts, and entrepreneurs, understanding this dynamic can be the key to leading effectively and making your voice heard.

The Science of Persuasion: Why Vocal Qualities Matter

How Vocal Delivery Shapes Leadership Perception in the 2024 Presidential Election

Sure, content is king. But the crown jewels? They’re all in the delivery. Robert Cialdini, the godfather of influence psychology, points out that authority and likability are key factors in persuasion—and these often hinge on how a message is delivered. As Cialdini explains, “We are more likely to be influenced by people who are authoritative, who appear credible and knowledgeable, regardless of the content of their message.” A deep, resonant voice doesn’t just sound good; it signals authority, commanding respect and attention before a leader even gets to the meat of their message.

Lee Hartley Carter, a renowned strategist and author of Persuasion: Convincing Others When Facts Don’t Seem to Matter, has spent years advising Fortune 500 companies and political campaigns on the art of effective communication. Her work highlights the critical role that emotional resonance and authenticity play in leadership. According to Carter, a voice that truly connects with listeners can make all the difference in persuasion. And let’s be honest, we’ve all been in meetings where the speaker’s monotone droning put us on a one-way trip to Snoozeville. But with the right vocal techniques, you can keep your audience engaged and attentive.

When a leader modulates their voice—using strategic pauses, varying their pitch, and adjusting their pacing—they’re not just holding attention; they’re shaping perceptions. A well-timed pause can create anticipation and emphasize a point, while variations in tone can keep the audience emotionally connected. Sometimes, how you say something lands more impactfully than what you say.

With these foundational ideas in mind, let’s explore how current leaders like Donald Trump and Kamala Harris use their vocal delivery to influence public perception.

Trump vs. Harris: A Vocal Showdown

The 2024 presidential race isn’t just a clash of ideologies—it’s a vocal duel. Donald Trump continues to wield his voice like a weapon, with his recent speech at the 2024 CPAC showcasing his signature assertive tone. As he declared, “We will take back the White House,” his booming voice was designed to project strength and determination to his base. It’s no wonder Trump’s rallies and speeches still feel like rock concerts—he’s mastered the art of keeping the audience on their feet, even if it’s with the same chorus repeated a dozen times. But as The Washington Post pointed out in 2019, while Trump’s “booming and relentless” tone solidifies his image as a strong leader, it’s also divisive. To some, his aggressive style comes off as bullying, deepening the divide between his supporters and detractors.

On the other side of the vocal spectrum is Kamala Harris. Her speech on gun violence prevention in June 2023 is a prime example of her calm, deliberate, and empathetic tone. Harris’s voice flowed with measured cadence, her empathetic tone wrapping around each word like a warm embrace—inviting listeners in rather than overwhelming them. During this speech, her deliberate pauses and slower pace were used to emphasize the gravity of the topic, resonating deeply with her audience. However, Harris faces a different set of challenges—particularly gender biases. As The New York Times explored in 2023, Harris’s vocal delivery is often judged against traditional gender expectations. Some praise her composed demeanor, while others criticize her for lacking the forcefulness they expect from a leader—especially when compared to male counterparts like Trump. This bias reflects broader societal expectations, where women leaders are often caught in a double bind: be too soft, and you’re weak; too strong, and you’re shrill.

Critical Thinking: Separating Content from Delivery

So, how can you navigate the nuances of vocal delivery without getting swayed by style over substance? Here are some tips:

  • Focus on the Content: Pay close attention to the actual message. Is the candidate backing up their claims with facts? Are they providing clear, logical arguments, or are they relying on emotional appeals and repetition to fill the gaps?
  • Beware of Emotional Manipulation: Notice when a speaker uses tone and inflection to play on your emotions. While emotions are a powerful communication tool, they shouldn’t replace rational analysis. As Lee Hartley Carter notes, “The leaders who resonate most emotionally with their audience are those who can authentically project the emotions that match their message. It’s not just what they say, but how they make people feel.” Ask yourself if the emotional tone aligns with the facts presented. How to Free Yourself from Emotional Velcro and Create Psychological Safety in the Workplace offers insights on managing emotional responses effectively.
  • Consider the Whole Picture: Vocal qualities can enhance or distort a candidate’s perceived credibility. Look beyond the delivery to assess their track record, policies, and actions.
  • Check Your Biases: Be mindful of unconscious biases that might affect how you perceive a candidate’s voice. Gender, race, and other factors can shape our perceptions of leadership qualities in ways we might not even realize.
  • Diversify Your Sources: Engage with a range of news outlets and analyses to get a balanced view. Different perspectives can help you see beyond any single source’s bias and get a fuller picture of the candidate’s platform and delivery.

Next time you hear a political speech, ask yourself: Are you being swayed by the logic of the argument, or is the speaker’s tone doing most of the work? How does the delivery shape your perception? By sharpening these critical thinking skills, you can better discern the substance behind a candidate’s words, making informed choices that go beyond surface-level impressions.

Summary and Takeaways

In leadership, how you say something can be as important—if not more so—than what you say. As we’ve seen with Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, vocal qualities significantly influence public perception, with societal biases adding another layer of complexity, particularly regarding gender. But by honing critical thinking skills and staying mindful of the difference between content and delivery, we can navigate these complexities and make more informed decisions. As the 2024 election approaches, let’s listen not just to the words our leaders speak, but to how they speak them. After all, it’s not just about sounding persuasive—it’s about leading with integrity. For more on this, see Strengthening Your Voice of Leadership in Uncertain Times.

And as we continue to explore the power of voice, whether in leadership or in technology like AI audiobooks, it’s clear that how we communicate can make all the difference.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

Why An Audiobook Now?

Connecting With People Through the Power of Audiobooks

audiobooks stack with headphones, top view

How are you getting your audience’s attention?

As you know, content is everywhere and the demands for attention are higher every day.

It’s easy for even the most compelling messages to get lost in the noise.

It’s critical to cut through the clutter and truly connect with your audience on a deeper, more personal level.

This is where the benefits of audiobooks now truly shine…

Audiobooks aren’t just a “format;” they’re an intimate experience that brings your words to life. When your voice tells your story, it’s not just heard—it’s felt. The cadence, the emotion, the subtle inflections—they all add layers of meaning that deepen the connection between you and your listener.

It’s an opportunity for deeper connection through content than nearly any other type of content that you will invest your time in creating.

Your message is more than just words on a page; it’s a reflection of your passion, your expertise, and your vision. When you translate that into an audiobook, you’re not just sharing information—you’re forging a connection.

So why aren’t more people producing audiobooks?

There are a few common issues and misconceptions we hear when talking with authors, publishers, editors and book coaches.

why an audiobook now?

Misconception 1: Audiobooks Won’t Reach My Audience

Many authors underestimate the reach and influence of audiobooks. They think that their audience prefers physical books or eBooks and that producing an audiobook won’t add much value. But the truth is, audiobooks have steadily grown in popularity over the years. 

52% of all U.S. adults have listened to an audiobook in their lifetime, and in 2023, revenue increased by 9% to $2 billion, according to the Audio Publishers Association.

Moreover, audiobooks can expand your reach to people with disabilities or those who prefer auditory learning. For many, reading can be a challenge due to visual impairments or dyslexia. Audiobooks offer an inclusive way for these individuals to enjoy your work without barriers.

By not offering an audiobook, you could be missing out on connecting with a whole segment of your audience who prefers consuming content in this format.

Misconception 2: Audiobooks Now Aren’t a Good Investment

Another common misconception is that producing audiobooks now requires a costly investment with little return. However, this couldn’t be further from the truth. Audiobooks can dramatically increase your audience, influence, and income. An audiobook has the potential to generate revenue indefinitely. Plus, with platforms like Audible, Google Play, Apple Books, and even Spotify, it’s easier than ever to distribute your audiobook to a global audience.

Authors are often surprised to learn that they don’t have to give away their royalties or go through a complicated process to see a return on their investment. The key is to work with an experienced team that understands how to navigate the audiobook market effectively.

Misconception 3: Audiobook Production is Complicated and Time-Consuming

Perhaps the most common reason authors hesitate to create an audiobook is the belief that it’s a complicated, time-consuming process. Many authors don’t know where to start or feel overwhelmed by the technical aspects of audiobook production. This is where working with a partner like Twin Flames Studios can make all the difference. We handle everything—from recording and editing to distribution—so you can focus on what you do best: telling your story. Our streamlined process ensures that your audiobook is produced to the highest quality standards while allowing you to maintain full creative control.

Let’s Create Audio Magic Together

The world of audiobooks is rich with opportunity, and there’s never been a better time to explore it.

Ready to take the next step?

why an audiobook now?

I’m hosting an in-depth webinar on September 19th, 2024 at 12 PM Eastern that will show you how to boost your bottom line, expand your audience, and create an audiobook that will give you content for years to come. This is where you start.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

5 Mistakes That Cost Authors Book Publicity

By Mary O'Donohue, Media Coach for Women Nonfiction Authors

5 Mistakes That Cost Authors Book Publicity

Why are so many authors struggling with getting the publicity they deserve?

I recently spoke to a nonfiction author who had a compelling topic, but she was very frustrated that she wasn’t getting any book publicity. Once we chatted and I had looked her up online, I quickly found the 5 reasons she wasn’t getting booked.

And I wasn’t surprised, because I see these same media marketing mistakes quite often. The sad thing is, they’re costing authors valuable national publicity.

I don’t want that to happen to you, so I’m sharing these common marketing mistakes – and how you can avoid them. Knowing these strategies will boost your chances of getting valuable publicity and doing media interviews that move the needle on book sales.

Mistake #1: Your bio reads like a resume.

Challenge: Surprised that your bio is costing you book publicity? It’s true! A resume-style bio is effective for HR folks, but it doesn’t speak to producers, columnists, and journalists who aren’t looking to hire you! So, listing out the 7 book awards you’ve won is impressive, but “award-winning author” says it better and faster. Media folks want an expert who knows how to convey their expertise succinctly and strategically.

Plus, a TV interview for example, often only runs about 5 minutes long, so if the host is stating your bio and it’s filled with lots of details about your work history, accomplishments, and awards, that will simply take up too much time. Ideally, for a short TV or radio interview, your Media Bio should be no more than 15 seconds when read aloud. If it’s longer than that, the person interviewing you usually won’t read the entire thing out loud. Instead, it will get edited, which is not ideal because it makes more work for them (not good) and they’re likely to take out key details that you’d rather keep in (not strategic.)

Solution: When your bio is media-savvy it becomes your brand ambassador, attracting the media rather than overwhelming them. So, your Media Bio should include the key elements like your name, title of your book, your unique expertise, and who exactly your reader is. It should clearly convey to the media and their audience that you’re the right person to be interviewed on this specific topic.

Action Step: Use this fictional example as inspiration to write your own Media Bio.

Kayla Suchandsuch is the author of the new book, Traveling With Toddlers: From Diapers to Denmark. Her year long experience globetrotting with her husband and 3-year-old twin daughters has transformed her into the go-to expert for adventurers who don’t want to give up traveling after becoming parents.

Mistake #2: You’re targeting an audience in media that is too broad.

Challenge: When you try to appeal to an audience that’s as wide as possible, you water down your appeal to the media. Think about it, when was the last time you listened to a podcast episode or radio program that appealed to everyone? It’s just not that common these days. That’s because we as individuals are interested in specific niches like book marketing podcasts, or radio shows about raising teenagers, or magazines specifically about pickleball (which totally exists, by the way.) You search out content based on your specific needs and interests, and your audience does the same thing.

Solution: Think about the specific audience who benefits from your book. If you want to get more readers and you focus on media outlets with as broad an audience as possible (or a completely different audience because you want to get your message out to the masses) you’re just going to confuse and alienate the people who need your wisdom, insights, and guidance.

But when you confidently target your book publicity to your true audience, it’s strategic and much more likely to move the needle on book sales. So, it’s worth your own time and effort, plus it benefits both the media outlet and their audience. That’s a win-win-win!

Action Step: After reading this entire article, take 5 minutes to do an internet search on your subject matter using this formula: your key words + “article” or your key words + “TV interviews,” etc… and you’ll quickly uncover the media outlets that are already serving your target audience. Make a list of these magazines, columnists, podcasts, etc… because they’re already interested in your subject matter.

Mistake #3: Your messaging lacks clarity.

Challenge: When I ask an author to tell me what her message is and she starts to explain, I know she’ll have a hard time getting book publicity. Why? Well, do you remember the old marketing adage, “A confused mind never buys?” My version is, “A confused producer never books.” If a media person doesn’t understand what you do or whom you serve, how can they know if you’d be a good fit for their audience?

Solution: These days our attention is spread really thin with so many messages coming at us in social media, ads, and about a gazillion websites. So, it’s more essential than ever to have a clear and concise core message that conveys your value to the media and potential readers. They need to know exactly:

  • What you do
  • Whom you do it for
  • The problem you solve
  • Your specific solution

When you do this effectively, you become memorable and much more bookable. For example, years ago I met a woman at a networking event whose message was so clear I still remember it. She said her company sold reversable infant clothing – pink on one side, blue on the other – for parents who didn’t want to know the gender of their child in advance. I wasn’t a media coach back then, but I told her that her message was “high concept” which meant a media person could immediately picture her product which helped make it extremely bookable. Producers love clarity. And that clarity helped her products to
be featured on The Today Show 3 weeks later. Clarity is a powerful asset!

Action Step: Use this example of a clear and concise core message as a jumping off point for writing yours. Let’s say an author is an expert on solving sleep issues in toddlers. Her core message could be:

I provide effective bedtime routines for toddlers so they – and their sleepy parents – can get consistent sleep every night.

Mistake #4: You’re pitching from a point of need.

Challenge: When I worked for The Oprah Winfrey Show, I often received pitches from authors and experts. I was a post producer, so not only were those pitches sent to the wrong person because I worked on shows that were already taped, but the emails almost always started with a variation of these 7 words: “I was hoping you could help me.”

I call that “The 7 Word Pitch That Costs You Publicity” because when I received those emails, I always deleted them after reading just those 7 words. Why? Because media folks are not in the business of helping random strangers get publicity. Sorry. I know that was harsh. But as someone who has worked in high profile television for more than 30 years, I want you to know the truth so it will help you avoid the pitfalls that ruin your chances of getting coveted national media interviews. (Plus, to be fair, we often work 16- hour days and we eat lunch at our desks, if we’re lucky enough to have time. Or desks. So, random strangers asking for help are not our priority.)

The truth is, people who work in media like producers, columnists, and journalists are in the business of serving a specific audience. When you help us do that, you make yourself more bookable. But when you ask for help, you immediately convey that you think you have nothing to offer that media outlet. So, your pitch gets deleted, and you never hear back.

Solution: The truth is nonfiction authors like you are highly bookable media guests who can – and do – get publicity because of the value you bring to the audience of national media outlets. Producers are busy, so they’re looking for experts like you who can make their jobs easier. Experts who pitch with confidence and relevant content have a massive advantage when getting booked!

So, embrace your specific expertise. Own it. Know that you have something unique and important to bring to media audiences. Pitch from a position of service rather than promoting your book. The nonfiction authors I work with get book sales because they bring value to the listeners, viewers, and readers of a particular media outlet.

Action Step: Your specific topics are hidden in plain sight in your own content! Look through your manuscript or published book for 5 potential interview topics that would be of service to your audience in the media they consume. Start with chapter names if you have them. Write them down. That’s your starting point for pitching with purpose!

Mistake #5: You want national publicity, but you don’t have proof of “media viability.”

Challenge: You have your eye on a Good Morning America appearance. You know you can bring value to their audience of millions, and your topic has national relevance, but you’ve been pitching for months and you’re just hearing crickets.

I know one big reason why. Let’s take a peek behind-the-scenes of a national morning show. I used to work on The Today Show in Washington D.C. and just about every day we had live guests appearing on the show from our studios. So, I know first-hand that a national producer will be hesitant to book you if there is no proof that you’ve done local television interviews, or in a pinch, some kind of on-camera appearance. (FYI, even if you have experience giving prepared speeches, that’s not necessarily proof to a producer that you can do live TV.)

A TV newsroom is a hierarchy. A producer who books an inexperienced guest who freezes on live TV is a producer who may be looking for a new job. That’s how consequential your interview may be for their career. If you demonstrate that you can convey your message with confidence and can handle unexpected questions with ease in local TV interviews, bringing that level of skill to a national interview may just help the producer who booked you get a promotion. I’ve spent decades in control rooms and have seen careers change after a single interview.

So, when you pitch a national producer but don’t have the experience to back it up, your chances of being booked go down. Do producers take risks when the guest is THE expert on the topic, and they need to confirm the booking ASAP? Yes. Do they get burned for that decision if the guest doesn’t deliver? Absolutely.

Solution: If your aspirations are national, start local. Get experience. Use the tips in this article to get clarity on who you are, your core message, and to get ideas for what to pitch.

Action Step: If you want to be on a national talk show, start watching local or regional talk shows in your area. Chances are they’re recorded and edited so that producer will be less concerned if you haven’t done live TV appearances because a post producer like me will work with editors to refine and streamline your interview. If your goal is to get on a national morning show, those shows are in the news divisions of their networks, so focus on watching your local news.

So often, nonfiction authors are only focused on getting publicity. But the preparation you do in advance of your media appearances will make all the difference in how effective and successful your media marketing will be. Taking the time to create a media marketing strategy with intention will set you up for publicity that helps you sell books, grow your audience, and make the kind of impact only you can make.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

More About Mary O'Donohue

Mary O’Donohue is a media coach for women nonfiction authors, #1 bestselling parenting author, and former post producer for The Oprah Winfrey Show. She has worked in high profile TV for decades, including years on The Today Show and NBC Nightly News. Mary’s mission is to teach women nonfiction authors how to get national publicity and confidently do media interviews that sell books, grow their impact, and change the world. Her unique coaching framework, The Media I.M.P.A.C.T. Method™ has consistently led to author success in national Media with her clients
reaching audiences of more than a billion. So far.
She can be reached through her website maryodonohue.com or by email at mary@maryodonohue.com

5 Mistakes That Cost Authors Book Publicity

Reduce Stress by Taking An Emotional Velcro Vacation

We interrupt this Hot Girl Summer for an Emotional Velcro Vacation!

Thus far, 2024 has been characterized with the typical uncertainty we all experience during a presidential election year, regardless of politics. But add the extra seasoning of social and economic unrest, and that is one spicy meatball!

As a leader, do you feel like you’re carrying the weight of their world on your shoulders?

Need some quick ways to reduce stress without sacrificing productivity?

reduce stress by taking an emotional velcro vacation

What is Emotional Velcro?

Simply, it’s the stress, anxiety, and emotional baggage you accumulate over time when interacting with other people.

It’s the “waxy buildup” of emotional residue that you often unconsciously adopt when leading teams, parent kids, partners, friends, and so on.

Taking Your Emotional Velcro Vacation

It’s time for some much-deserved relief and rejuvenation.

When you are stressed, ask yourself, “Why am I feeling this way?”

Are you carrying the emotions of someone else, even by accident? Figuring out the source of the emotional velcro can help bring about immediate relief or at least help you get to the next step.

First, talk with someone else like a coach, counselor or other trusted source. Or simply spend some time in reflection and analysis to discover the truth inside yourself or about the situation.

From there, it’s time to shift your mental state, which is a lot easier said than done. Find out more about how to apply all three of these steps in this article I wrote for Forbes about creating psychological safety in the workplace by freeing yourself of Emotional Velcro.

Vocal Techniques to Reduce Stress Immediately

For some quick relief or practice, here are two vocal techniques you can use right now: sigh and rant. It’s like the “bend and snap” of 2024.

A deep sigh triggers your parasympathetic nervous system and your body’s relaxation response. It’s easy to do, and you can do this anywhere – which is why it’s one of my favorite techniques.

And the “rant” in question here is actually much less long-winded than it sounds. When I say “rant” I’m talking about unleashing a single word, done in a specific way that also has fantastic benefits for your nervous system.

Read more about these 2 vocal techniques for immediate stress relief in another article I wrote for Forbes, so you can perfect them in no time.

Remember, taking care of your emotional well-being is not a luxury; it’s a necessity. So, take that first step today and start shedding the Emotional Velcro that’s holding you back. Your future self will thank you.

Additional Resources:

How to Free Yourself from Emotional Velcro And Create Psychological Safety In The Workplace

How To Reduce Your Stress Immediately With 2 Vocal Techniques

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

The State of AI Audiobooks in 2024

Is authenticity dead in the age of AI?

All the publishing world was abuzz in 2023 with the inclusion of AI Audiobooks on the “Big 5” retail outlets Audible, Google Books, Apple Books, Barnes & Noble, and Kobo. Impassioned pleas for authenticity have clashed with diatribes on accessibility and cost across virtual platforms and conference rooms alike.

In 2024, the news cycle on this topic has simmered down considerably, leaving some important questions unanswered.

  • Are AI narrated Audiobooks selling?
  • Is it cost effective to use AI narration for Audiobooks?
  • Does the technology actually work?
  • Will I damage my reputation by using AI narration?
  • What about any innovations or “special cases” where AI narration can help with Audiobook production or sales?

Are AI Narrated Audiobooks Selling?

The short answer is NO.

It turns out that in 2023, resistance to AI narrated Audiobooks intensified. Audiobook listeners reported they weren’t likely to listen to AI generated audiobooks, even if the voice of the author was cloned.

Reviewing the presence of AI audiobooks in the marketplace, there are fewer than two thousand AI voiced audiobooks on the market, most with not great reviews, if any reviews at all.

For contrast, remember that 2700 books a DAY are published in the US alone.

Let’s call this initial reception to AI narrated Audiobooks “cool to lukewarm at best.” With all the buzz around AI in general throughout 2023, why didn’t AI Audiobooks perform well?

I’ll sum it up in one sentence.

NO ONE WANTS A ROBOT VOICE IN THEIR EARS FOR 4, 5, OR 8 HOURS.

This isn’t new. I interviewed a former long-time employee of Learning Ally, a respected and long-standing company devoted to providing accessible materials for children with learning differences, Michael Kinsey. Michael specializes in audio production and, in particular, Audiobooks. He’s also one of our Audiobook directors here at Twin Flames Studios.

“When text to speech came out, we wanted to use the technology to make more books available and accessible. The problem was, no one wanted to listen to a synthetic voice,” explained Kinsey.

“For example, we had a text to speech version of the book The Outsiders, which was taught in a lot of high school English classes for many years. Not very many students accessed it. But when we brought in a professional Audiobook Narrator to create a new version, suddenly the Audiobook version became one of our top titles. Students were listening to the Audiobook even when they didn’t have an assignment related to it.”

While the state of text to speech technology has come leaps and bounds in recent years, our ears and brains are discerning. When it comes to longer-form content like Audiobooks and podcasts, the numbers show that the technology isn’t good enough yet to replicate the nuance of the human voice.

Is it Cost Effective to Use AI for Audiobook Narration?

I keep hearing AI Audiobook narration being referred to as “cost effective.” That implies that you can get the job done for less and still reap the benefits. But if AI narrated Audiobooks aren’t selling well, we can’t call this a cost effective solution.

AI Audiobook Narration cost can range from free to about 5K per Audiobook. For the sake of comparison, our full Audiobook packages tend to range from 3-5K in either the case of author narration or professional narration.

This isn’t just about numbers; it’s about impact. Just think what those 250 people will accomplish by taking action in their lives, in their businesses, in their communities – because of what they learned as a result of your book.

If you go with one of the free options, you’re going to spend a considerable amount of time learning how to edit your Audiobook to get it to a finished product, and not even a finished product that would compare well with a human narrated audiobook.

Does the Technology for AI Audiobook Narration Really Work?

I do believe that at some point, AI audio will become pretty much indistinguishable from human voices. Since it’s not there yet though, here’s what we know is possible, based on research across Audiobook platforms and AI voice options.

1. AI audio narration voices are available in more than 25 different languages. HOWEVER, the translations are wildly inaccurate, particularly for long-form audio like an audiobook.

Want to know more about how inaccurate? Leave a comment on this post and if there’s enough interest, we’ll do a video demo!

Besides errors in translation from language to language, here are some other pitfalls of the current technology that it doesn’t handle well:

2. Dialects and diverse expressions

For example, one publisher of Judaic books noted to me that he had to abandon AI as a feasible option because AI can’t make the “Jewish” sounds denoted by Hebrew glottal [ʔ] (א) and [h] (ה), uvular [χ] (ח), and pharyngeal [ʕ] (ע).

3. Pronunciation issues and regionalisms

Getting AI to correctly pronounce names, or understand if you want the word “aunt” pronounced “ant” or “awnt,” or if you’re a Canadian author and want “process” pronounced “pro-cess” instead of “praw-cess,” is an exercise in frustration.

I could give you at least 50 examples of single words that have multiple pronunciations like the ones above.

4. Emotional nuance, pauses, and humor

We know from decades of sales data that what sells an Audiobook is the quality of the narration. The more a narrator, be they the author or a voice actor, feels like they’re right there with you and drawing you in, the better and more impactful the audiobook.

AI doesn’t know how to breathe, and lacks the natural cadence and pacing of human voices. This not only gives us that “uncanny valley” feeling when we listen, it also impacts the performance. AI doesn’t understand where nuanced pauses should go, or sometimes what words need to be emphasized. It definitely doesn’t understand jokes, irony, or sarcasm.

Imagine a romance novel where the narrator doesn’t understand longing, or desire…

Imagine a business book where you’re trying to learn something important, but the pauses aren’t in the right place, or the author meant something to be ironic and now you’re left feeling confused.

Our Senior Audiobook Director, Paul Stefano, has narrated many, MANY dozens of Audiobooks in his career, both fiction and nonfiction. Recently, he decided to license his voice to a reputable AI narration company, and they sent him a professionally edited audio sample of his AI voice clone. The voice clone was created from a recording of an audiobook that Paul owns the rights to, and this represents the best current technology in AI cloning that is easily accessible to the public.

Listen to both brief samples, and then imagine listening to each voice for 4, 6, 8, or 10 hours.

AI Narration Sample:

Natural Sample:

Will I Damage my Reputation by Using AI narration?

The Internet has a long memory. Back when The Gifts of Imperfection was originally published in 2010, Brene Brown’s publisher didn’t have her narrate the audiobook. In fact, the narrator wasn’t even close to Brene’s vocal style.

Things did not go well.

The book sold 3 million copies, but the audiobook did NOT.

One of the biggest requests that Brene had over the years was a version of that audiobook with her narrating, because Brene is highly known for her voice. She originally went viral via her TED Talk, she has podcasts, and her candor and combination of deep research and insight combined with a naturally enthusiastic “folksy” presence gives Brene a vocal thumbprint that is unmistakable.

What does this have to do with AI?

Well, if a highly produced Audiobook plus a professional, but ‘off the mark’ casted narrator hurt Brene’s Audiobook sales and ratings that much, just imagine what the reaction would be to an AI narrator.

When Brene released the 10th anniversary edition of The Gifts of Imperfection, she narrated a new version of the audiobook, and the ratings and reviews speak for themselves.

Not everyone is going to have Brene Brown’s level of notoriety and success, but she didn’t start out a multiple NYT bestseller. She was a college professor and researcher. If you are planning on being known for your voice as an expert, speaker, or industry leader, you need to cherish and cultivate your voice as a unique asset. If you’d like to get started with some exercises to help you develop your voice, here are some tools and resources for you.

What About Any Innovations or “Special Cases” Where AI Can Help with Audiobook Production or Marketing?

Yes, there are several places where AI is super helpful!

Overall, short-form content like social media is a good place for the current state of AI audio. We’re already used to hearing AI voices in social media on many viral reels, and this can save creators time and energy. Plus, if you’re not someone who loves being on camera, using an AI voiceover can work just fine for short content.

I personally love a good doggo voice over.

AI tools for promoting your Audiobook are becoming more abundant as well, which we love. I’m a fan of Vidyo.ai, which automatically edits longer video into clips for social media, blogs, etc.

PRO TIP: Convert your Audiobook files from .mp3 to .mp4 and get the AI to suggest short, interesting clips of your audiobook for promotional Videograms. You can also reach out to us to create these for you, they’re great for evergreen marketing campaigns, and cross promoting your articles, blogs posts, and newsletters with your audiobook.

And as a final thought, we’d love to see AI continue to evolve so that we could use it to make Audiobook edits. While an entire AI Audiobook narration is hard on our ears and brains, being able to replace some words using AI narration would be a great use of time, energy, and money for authors, narrators, and producers/publishers alike.

Audiobooks continue to sell at an accelerated rate, with double digit growth year on year for the last 12 years. They’re an enduring format, but what makes an Audiobook truly endure the test of time is the quality of narration. If you’re ready to create an Audiobook that you’re proud of for decades to come, contact us and let’s get your work into more ears and hearts.

Read and watch more Frequently Asked Questions about Audiobooks and benefit from our expertise, or Contact Us for more information and forthright advice about producing, distributing, and profiting from Audiobooks. Plus, download our Vocal Leadership Workout to develop and refine your the most influential tool you have — your voice!

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

Is A Book Still Worth It: How to Write a Book for Today’s Market

Let’s get real for a second and talk about how to write a book for today's market and what it really means to do so.

The book publishing industry tells people to make dreams meet paper.

How? Write a book. They’ll tell you, “Publish that book! It’s your ticket to authority, uniqueness, and that indescribable je ne sais quoi that an expert needs to stand out.

But here’s the tea…

how to write a book

Peeling Back the Curtain on Publishing

Every single day, the U.S. greets 2,700 new titles. Yet, catching those 100,000+ sales is like finding a unicorn in a haystack.

The average self-published author? 

They’re looking at 250 sales. But before you toss your manuscript out the window, hold up – because this is where it gets interesting.

The Mighty Power of 250

Imagine those 250 sales not as numbers, but as people – each one an individual connecting deeply with your message. This select audience could be the very people you’ve been aiming to reach, ready to champion your cause. 

This isn’t just about numbers; it’s about impact. Just think what those 250 people will accomplish by taking action in their lives, in their businesses, in their communities – because of what they learned as a result of your book.

True Influence vs. Follower Count

In our digital era, it’s easy to get caught up in the follower frenzy. But here’s the kicker: real influence isn’t about how many, but about how much – the depth of connection, the conversations sparked, the actions taken. Authors like Brene Brown and Malcolm Gladwell didn’t just gather an audience; they built communities moved to action by their words. 

Their books came first.

Nonfiction: A Catalyst for Change

Nonfiction books have this incredible capacity to not just share knowledge but to inspire action.

Think Rachel Carson’s Silent Spring or Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique – these weren’t just books; they were movements that continue to shape our world today, many decades after they were published. 

Your book could be the next catalyst for change, reaching those who are ready to listen and act.

How to Write a Book in the Digital Age

While the digital world whirls with tweets and snaps, nonfiction books stand as islands of depth and reflection. They offer a pause, a chance to dive deep, and a platform for authors to share their most potent thoughts. 

The advent of digital media has revolutionized the way knowledge is consumed, giving rise to questions about the relevance of traditional books in a fast-paced world. Yet, despite the proliferation of social media, short videos, and online courses, books remain unparalleled in their impact. Here's why:

  • Depth of Engagement: Books offer a depth of thought and analysis that short-form content simply cannot match. They allow authors to explore ideas comprehensively, fostering a deeper connection and understanding with their audience.
  • Perceived Authority: Publishing a book establishes an author's credibility in a way that transient digital content cannot. It is a tangible testament to an author's expertise and commitment to their field.
  • Longevity: Unlike social media posts or videos that quickly fade into the background, books have a lasting presence. They continue to be cited, referenced, and read years, if not decades, after their publication. Simply put, books endure.
  • Market Reach: Books open up opportunities to reach audiences beyond digital boundaries, including speaking engagements, workshops, and academic citations.

To Write, or Not to Write?

So, we circle back to the big question: Should you write and publish that book? If you’re looking to do more than just win a popularity contest – if you’re aiming to truly resonate and make a lasting impact – then yes, a thousand times yes. 

This journey is about tapping into the unique power of books to connect, to inspire, and to mobilize. It’s about embracing the opportunity to share your voice, your vision, and your message with the world – and maybe, just maybe, change it for the better.

Writing and publishing a book isn’t just an item on a to-do list; it’s a path to creating ripples of change, fostering a community of engaged readers, and contributing something timeless to the global conversation. So, are you in? Because the world’s waiting for what you have to say.

Read and watch more Frequently Asked Questions about Audiobooks and benefit from our expertise, or Contact Us for more information and forthright advice about producing, distributing, and profiting from Audiobooks.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

Authors’ Advocacy Leads to Positive Changes at Spotify and Audible

Did Mercury retrograde specifically target the Audiobook industry in Q1 this year?

Between Spotify’s bewildering attempted rights grab and author Brandon Sanderson swinging his influence like Excalibur over Audible, the news around Audiobooks in 2024 is wild!

Here’s what’s been happening, and what authors need to know to make sure they are getting the most out of their Audiobook investment and rights.

Planet wearing headphones in a city setting with people and audio symbols all around
Is Mercury retrograde affecting the audiobook industry?

Spotify’s Thwarted Audiobook Rights Grab

Spotify positioned itself as a would-be competitor to Audible over the last 2 years, launching a monthly subscription service and retail audiobook sales on their platform. Spotify also purchased FindawayVoices, a long-time Audiobook distribution company that had been growing an Audiobook self-publishing and production platform for authors as a competitor to Audible’s ACX platform.

Currently, the only way for independent authors to have their Audiobook distributed on Spotify is to use Findaway.

On February 15, 2024, Spotify changed their terms of use on Findaway, requiring authors to grant broad rights to Spotify for translating, modifying, and creating derivative works from submitted audiobooks. This sparked immediate concerns among authors and publishing professionals who were worried this was encroaching on their Audiobook rights. The Authors Guild, among other industry watchdog groups, warned its members not to accept the new terms.

In fact, the response was so overwhelming that Spotify responded immediately. The new terms of use, released a day later on February 16, removed the overly broad rights and clarified that the rights granted were solely for the purpose of improving discoverability, anti-piracy, and anti-fraud measures – not for creating new content or AI voice training without permission.

For more on the specific changes to the Audiobook terms at Spotify, read the Authors Guild’s response to these changes here.

Is it “safe” to publish your Audiobooks to Spotify at this point? I would say yes, given the updated Terms of Use. At the same time, we here at Twin Flames Studios will be keeping an eye on the situation and gathering industry news as always to make sure that authors are getting the best options for their Audiobooks.

Higher Audiobook Royalties Coming Soon from Audible

Brandon Sanderson, the esteemed science fiction and fantasy writer with more than 40 million book sales, is largely to thank for Audible’s impending new royalty structure, which is said to offer better terms for Audiobooks from independent authors. 

This change comes after Sanderson's proactive discussions with Audible. Sanderson, who previously withheld the Audiobook versions of his Secret Projects series from Audible to encourage industry reform, will soon release them on the platform, recognizing Audible's steps towards improvement.

Sanderson noted that his desire for a more transparent and equitable system emerged from Audible’s ambiguous royalty and audio sales structure. As a result of Audible’s “credit” system, authors are often unsure of how their royalties are being accounted for.

Another point of contention Sanderson had with Audible was the percentage of sales authors receive in royalties. He explained that “While video game creators and musicians get 70–80% of a sale of their products… Audible is paying as low as 25%–with the high end being instead 40%.” 

As a result of new negotiations with Audible through Sanderson’s team, minimum royalty rates for Audiobooks are increasing and the company is going to be more transparent about authors’ pay as it relates to “credits” spent by users. Additional changes include authors being paid royalties monthly instead of quarterly and the inclusion of additional documentation of how royalty amounts are calculated.

While the new structure doesn't fully meet all his expectations, it represents a significant step forward in the right direction for Audiobooks. My team and I at Twin Flames Studios will be the first in line to announce to our Audiobook clients that their royalties are increasing as soon as Audible makes these changes.

Read and watch more Frequently Asked Questions about Audiobooks and benefit from our expertise, or Contact Us for more information and forthright advice about producing, distributing, and profiting from Audiobooks.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

About Tina Dietz:

Tina Dietz is an award-winning and internationally acclaimed speaker, audiobook publisher, podcast producer, and vocal leadership expert whose work and shows have been featured on media outlets including ABC, NBC, CBS, The Wall Street Journal and Chicago Tribune, Inc.com, and Forbes. She’s been named one of the top podcasters for entrepreneurs by INC.com, and Tina’s company, Twin Flames Studios, re-imagines thought leadership through podcasting and audiobooks for experts, executives, and founders.

The Simpsons Copywriting Policy to Convert More Customers From Your Sales Page

By Sage Polaris, “Conscious Launch Strategist for the Internet Rich and Famous”

As online business owners, we draw inspiration and ideas for promoting our own business from all kinds of sources: our peers, TV, music, sports, fiction, and even the movies.

Early on in my copywriting career I learned about DISC, a personality-based system created to better understand your strengths. It quickly dawned on me when I learned about this system that it could also be applied to the way people make buying decisions and I could teach this system through the lens of the Simpsons TV show. Yes, those Simpsons – Marge, Lisa, Bart, and of course the most unforgettable one, Homer. 

And the results I have gotten speak for themselves. I’ve used this system to support writing launch copy for my clients, and they have made upwards of $1.25 million in a single launch. I’ve also written copy for more than 475 clients with millions more in sales results.

Image of Lego Simpsons characters

Now, getting your copy to that level of performance is rare enough in and of itself, but bringing it into the frame of everyone's favorite cartoon, dysfunctional family is what makes my method for tripling sales results truly unforgettable and super actionable.

So the question is, how do you use these four main characters in the Simpsons to write better copy that sells? This system can be applied to writing your sales page, ad copy, sales emails, landing pages, or even convincing your partner to walk the dog.

The 4 Buyer Types You Want to Invite Every Time You Make an Offer as an Online Business Owner

Image of Homer thinking with text describing the fun-loving decision maker

Buyer Type #1: Yellow – Homer // Fun Loving Decision Maker

This buyer is driven by humor. They love it when you seem fun and they make buying decisions based on funny music lyrics, puns, and gifs throughout your sales pages, sales emails, Facebook ads, and brand photos. This person thinks you seem like a good time and fun to work with so they want to be a part of whatever you’re offering.

Buyer Type #2: Red – Bart // Fast Decision Makers

This buyer knows in their gut they want to work with you. This person is the type of buyer who will never read a long-form sales page. They will scan your offer, and if it’s not clear how to buy right away they will get frustrated, forget, and bounce off your website page.

Image of Bart leaning on skateboard with text describing fast decision makers
Image of Marge with text describing deep connection decision makers

Buyer Type #3: Blue – Marge // Deep Connection Decision Makers

This buyer is very visual and feels connected to your brand through strong visual imagery, videos, and stories that paint a picture. This person wants to buy when they feel connected to your story and you can pull them in with a vision without having to push with pain. 

Buyer Type #4: Green – Lisa // Detail-Oriented Decision Maker

This buyer is driven by details and data. They want to know right from the beginning if the offer is specifically for them. They’re also the type who will read your entire long-form sales page. Once they start reading, they have to finish and they will still write you to ask questions. Asking questions is how they start the sales conversation to make a buying decision.

*All photos from @marketandmedia on Instagram

Image of Lisa with text describing detail-oriented decision maker

Checklist for Optimizing The Words on Your Website to Sell More Using The Simpsons Framework:

1. Red/Bart: Did you include a button at the top of your offer page that sends them directly to the pricing section or put the pricing right at the top? Did you include a testimonial near the top button? This is for the Reds/Barts buyer types. They are a fast decision-maker and want to purchase right away.

2. Blue/Marge: Did you include strong branded visuals/photos near the top of your offer page? Did you share your story about what inspired you to create the offer further down the page? This is for the Blues/Marge buyer type. They want to feel deeply connected to you and your story.

3. Green/Lisa: Did you make it super clear and identify who the offer is for at the top of the page before they scroll? This is for the Greens/Lisa buyer type. They will be asking themselves, “Is this really for me?” if you don’t clearly indicate who the offer is for from the start.

4. Yellow/Homer: Did you add something fun or funny at the top of the offer page? It could be music lyrics, puns, gifs, or even doing something funny in the branded photos of yourself. This is for the Yellow/Homer buyer type. They want to know that you don’t take yourself too seriously and you like to have a good time.

Whether you’re an established or emerging business owner these methods will help you triple your sales results when you apply them to any copy you need to write for your online business.

Are You Ready to Write Better Copy and Increase Sales Results? Here are some of my personal recommendations for writing better copy…

Read great writers’ books:

Hire a copywriter for the following:

  • Messaging for your website, product, or next offer
  • Storytelling in your emails, sales pages, and organic/paid copy
  • Gathering customer voice data for your launch
  • Marketing for your launch sales page or sales emails

Podcasts to get inspiration for writing better copy:

Join my free newsletter or paid copywriting membership (good for when you’re on a budget):

  • Grab my Triple Your Email Open Rates to get started with my free newsletter. Maybe you’ve ghosted your email list or you can’t remember the last time you scrubbed your email list. Grab my triple email open rates and know exactly what to say to make your next offer.
  • My Copy Sales Booster Template Membership for emerging and established service providers, ecomm folks, and course creators. Get a taste of what it's like to shave 15 to 20 hours off your work week with my copy templates. Go to this link and USE CODE: TWIN7 to get started with your 2 week trial for $7

I have written high-converting copy for more than 475+ projects earning my clients millions of dollars. I am also the copywriter for personal brands and service providers who want to sell more of their service or offer with the words on their website.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

More About Sage Polaris

Sage Polaris has written high converting copy for more than 475+ projects earning them millions of dollars. She helps personal brands and service providers sell more of their service or offer with the words on their website. 

She has worked with Teachable, Rick Mulready, and Lynne Twist. Basically, she makes money for the “internet famous” people we all look up to.

If you want to learn more about Sage Polaris, you can visit her company's website here.

Image of Sage Polaris

Serious Leaders Need Serious Leisure

It's easy to get caught up in the never-ending demands of work, and let your personal life fall to the wayside. We've all done it. The pressure to keep on slogging never ends, but what if making time for yourself was actually the best thing you could do for yourself and your organization? Explore the extraordinary world of “serious leisure” and how it's transforming the lives of leaders in unique ways.

Don't miss our Leaders' Discussion Guide for this episode below – perfect for your next team Lunch & Learn!

Serious Leaders Need Serious Leisure – Episode Highlights

  • Introduction to the concept of “serious leisure” and its significance for leaders and professionals (00:08)
  • Differentiate “serious leisure” from regular leisure and its potential benefits (01:27)
  • Hear from Charles Boinske about his childhood experience and early connection with fly fishing, his serious leisure pursuit, and its integration with his professional life (03:24)
  • Tina Dietz's personal journey with voice acting and the value it adds to her leadership skills (05:12)
  • Hear from Julie Ulstrup & Jen Coyne about each of their serious leisure pursuits (11:07)
  • Discover how our serious leisure pursuits impact our businesses and careers directly (13:33)
  • Identify the transformative potential of serious leisure on bringing authenticity to your leadership (21:13)

Full Transcript

Charles Boinske

That's it for me. It's the camaraderie part that is more important than anything else.

Tina Dietz 

There's a drop of inspiration, a dash of creativity, plenty of communication, and there you have it, our executive elixir. This is Drink From The Well. Hello, everyone. I'm Tina Dietz, your mystic of management. Today on Drink From the Well, serious leaders need serious leisure. It's easy to get caught up in the never-ending demands of work, and let your personal life fall to the wayside. We've all done it. The pressure to keep on slogging never ends, particularly for those of us in the C-suite. But, what if making time for yourself was actually the best thing you could do for yourself and your organization? But I'm not just talking about leisure, I'm talking about serious leisure.

David White

Get ready for leisure, leisure, leisure. It's not just relaxing, it's relaxing to the extreme!

Tina Dietz  

Okay, no. That's not what I'm talking about when I say serious leisure, thankfully. While most leisure activities can provide some form of recovery, serious leisure is when you're pursuing something that you enjoy as an amateur hobbyist or a volunteer in such a way that you're developing special skills and knowledge over time. Let me offer up a couple of examples. Leisure might be going to the beach, but serious leisure might be getting certified in scuba and regularly taking and planning scuba trips. Regular leisure might be listening to audiobooks, serious leisure might be learning to become a voice actor. It's all about diving headfirst into the world of your passion, rather than simply dipping your toe in. While everyday leisure is important for a whole host of reasons, serious leisure offers leaders even more. According to a study published in the journal Frontiers in Psychology, serious leisure offers CEOs a sense of freedom and relief from the demands of leadership as well as strong personal resources needed to rise up to their own expectations of leadership. In addition to being enjoyable, serious leisure gives you additional skills, a body of knowledge, and a community as part of the package. A number of well-known CEOs have avid hobbies that take years to master. A few notable examples include former Yahoo CEO Marissa Mayer, who is an avid baker, and even keeps spreadsheets of cupcake and frosting recipes so that she can adapt them and make new ones. Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon is a bonafide DJ going by the name DJ D-Sol. Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak is a huge proponent and player of — wait for it — Segway polo. Yep, that's polo played not on a horse but on a Segway. Look it up on YouTube, and you're welcome. As you'll find out, being unique in your field may be as simple as kicking your feet back and enjoying some leisure. Seriously.

Charles Boinske 

Well, it's a bit of a story, but my family has always been outdoorsy.

Tina Dietz 

Charles Boinske, CFA, is the Chief Visionary Officer at Modera Wealth Management. He hails from his small town of Cumberland, Pennsylvania, where he first started cultivating his serious leisure pursuit of fly fishing.

Charles Boinske  

Early on, when I was six and a half years old, my dad passed away, and that was in January. In the following spring, one of my best friends and his father came to pick me up to take me out for the first day of trout fishing to get me out of the house and provide a positive experience after what had been a pretty negative experience as you might imagine. That day, sitting on the trout stream with my buddy David and his father, watching his father fly fish, left an enormous imprint on me. It sort of lit the fuse to what became a lifelong passion of mine.

Tina Dietz  

After that first fly fishing experience, here's how his passion developed.

Charles Boinske 

Well, I grew up, as you said, in Kimberton, Pennsylvania. The nice thing about Kimberton was it was a small town, a little village, not that far from Philadelphia. But there were trout streams pretty available that I could reach on my bicycle. So early on, either my parents dropped me off at the trout stream, which you could do without criticism in the 1970s, and left me there all day to fish and then would come back and pick me up at dark or I'd ride my bicycle over. I just remember the peace and quiet of the experience, and as an introverted person, the ability to recharge on a trout stream became a really important part of my mental health, just being able to detach from the workplace and the stresses of everyday life, and running a business eventually, to focus on little bugs that trout eat in beautiful places really provided me a tremendous meditative therapy.

Tina Dietz 

Like Charles, my story of serious leisure begins really young.  

Young Tina

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K.  

Tina Dietz

Like really, really young. But when we were originally producing this episode, I didn't think to include my story at all. That's when my team stepped in and decided to record me at a team meeting.  I have been making mixtapes and recordings, I have been singing on stage and taking dance lessons for as long as I was allowed to do so. But when I got to college, I got really scared by the performing arts, I got scared by the politics of it, I got scared by the enormity of it, I got scared by the lifestyle of working all the nights and weekends, and I didn't think I'd be able to do all of that and have a family. And I really didn't believe that I was good enough. So I came as a big fish in a small pond growing up in a tiny little town where I graduated fourth out of 93 people. But the real world was a very different scenario. So I pivoted pretty hard. I took some time off, and I went back to school for psychology to become someone who helps teenagers. I missed the energy that it is to be with a group of people going on a shared journey, a shared emotional journey of the story of whatever's being performed on the stage. That's the thing that always really tickles my soul. But I didn't touch anything with a microphone from the age of about 19 until I was in my 30s again. I had this big gap where I was trying to make a life and I tried to set it aside as something that was childish, all that time that I had spent. It was when my mother introduced me to a woman named Toni Silveri that things started to change again. Toni Silveri was and still is an amazing voice actor, and she's also a voice agent. She lived right where we were in Western New York, and she was my mom's yoga student. She had started teaching classes out of her basement studio, and I was really interested because I'd always been curious about voice acting, but never even really considered it as a viable career option of any particular kind. But it turned out that in building my father's business with him, I had been building information products and using my voice to voice over the instructions for all of these massage videos that we were doing for his professional massage training company. Well, I gave those to Toni and she said, “I want to represent you.” And I was just over the moon. So I dove into voice acting. I just love being in the booth and getting direction and doing commercials. Then, Toni brought in someone named Pat Fraley, who is a legend in the industry, to teach a masterclass in audiobook narration. Well, I had an amazing time in that class, and I came away with two very important insights. One was that, “Holy crap, audiobook narration is a lot of work. Oh, my God, like this is a long-form marathon.” And the other question I had, I always laugh, the other insight was, “Why are my colleagues, my clients, the people I know through my business coaching practice, which is what I was doing at the time professionally, why aren't they doing audiobooks of the books that they're writing?” The self-publishing craze was right at its zeitgeist so people were self-publishing like crazy at the time, and nobody was doing audiobooks. And like any good entrepreneur, that led me down a research rabbit hole. Nobody was offering self-published authors or hybrid-published authors audiobook services. It was all traditional publishing where you basically give up your rights and your royalties, and you don't have a lot of creative control over what's going to happen with your audiobook. I got pissed off. I hung on to this idea of, “We should be able to solve this problem, we should be able to solve this problem.” For several years, the audiobook idea wouldn't go away. And I found myself in a place years later, in about 2014-2015, where I was the sole breadwinner for my family, and I was tired of coaching. I had just gotten fatigued, not so much by my clients but by the industry itself. And I thought, “Well, maybe it's time to pull the trigger on this audiobook service.” I surveyed a bunch of colleagues at a conference, and they were really interested. I decided to start a pilot, and it took off so fast that within a year, producing audiobooks had completely eclipsed my coaching practice. That was the seeds of what is now Twin Flames Studios today. I turned my hobby into a business. But there are so many more ways that we can benefit as leaders from the pastimes that we're passionate about. When we come back from the break, we'll hear more about why busy leaders make the time for serious leisure when we've already got so much on our plates. Time is a very precious commodity, and serious leisure pursuits take a lot of it. But what I've discovered is that when I don't take the time for the things I love to do, I die a little inside. Taking the time in my evenings for an improv group or storytelling group or practicing stand-up comedy leaves me feeling far more energized and fulfilled than I would be without it. It's not a draining experience, it's an uplifting experience. These things that feed our souls give us more energy, and they give us back more of who we are so that when we go back into the pressure and busyness of work and leadership, we feel refreshed. That's what's true for me. Here's what's true for a couple of my colleagues and Charles.

Julie Ulstrup 

Hi, I'm Julie Ulstrup. I am the CEO and Founder of Leadership Accelerator for Women. My serious leisure activity is Kung Fu and Tai Chi martial arts. I have been a martial arts student for just over eight years. The reason I started my martial arts practice and my learning and love of it is because right before I got married, I was told that it was a great way to get in shape, and that's true. And when I started, I was probably the oldest person in the class by 20 years, easily. But I didn't care because what happened is there's this body, mind, and spirit connection in martial arts. I get there and it is all about me using my body in a way that is strong and controlled, and using my mind to be very intentional about what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and why I'm doing it.

Jen Coyne 

I'm Jen Coyne, co-founder and CEO of the PEAK Fleet. My time outside of work has almost always included serious leisure. In particular, I spent a lot of time creating glass art, fiber art, and crafting in many other ways. What makes me continue to spend time on these hobbies when other aspects of life and owning my own business are so demanding is the reward and fulfillment that I get from it.

Charles Boinske 

When you're fishing — it's hard to describe — the best way I can describe it is bouncing around along some dirt road in a rented SUV looking for a trout stream that you've read about or heard about, or is maybe mythology, where there are really nice fish, with a buddy, and finding that spot and catching some fish, releasing them, and then stopping at a bar and on the way out of town or out away from the stream, having a beer and a burger. And recounting the whole thing is the whole experience. That's it for me. It's the camaraderie part that is more important than anything else.

Tina Dietz 

The personal benefits of hobbies are clear. But how can our serious leisure pursuits impact our businesses and careers in a more direct way? We'll find out more after this quick break.  We're back and talking about how serious leisure pursuits impact our businesses and careers in a very direct and material way. For myself, I've had a lot of careers. I've been a therapist, I've been the owner of multiple startup businesses, I've been a business coach, and now I'm the CEO of an audio production company specializing in folks who really want to lead with their voice. In every single one of those places in roles, my ability to communicate has always been paramount, and my ability to create relationships has been a lot of what I've learned through the performing arts, how to stand in somebody else's shoes, how to create a space of belonging, how to be able to respond and build together — this translates to building business together, building a vision together, building strategy together, and managing my team. Every single one of the skills that I've learned through the performing arts has been fundamental to every role I've ever had professionally, but especially as a leader. I don't imagine, necessarily, that what I've learned on the stage means that I'd end up at a television show or on Broadway. Maybe there's 10% of me that holds out some hope there. But every day I'm in a leadership position whether I'm at the front of the room, front of the stage, or I'm part of my team on a day-to-day basis. What I've learned through acting, singing, dancing, and creating shows together, developing that shared space, developing a shared creative endeavor, all of that has given me much more depth and appreciation of the variety of human expression. It's made me softer, more flexible, more creative, and more interested in taking somebody else's point of view. As you can imagine, that's made me a very effective salesperson. I'm excellent at marketing and developing relationships, long-term and short-term, getting to the heart of the matter, and getting to the meat. And rather than necessarily having to push my own agenda all the time, I've learned how to create a give-and-take flow, just like we would do an improv building on each other's premises. Yes, and, yes, and. That's taken a lot of work on my part because when I was a little kid, and you might not have been able to hear this in my voice from that little audio clip, man, I wanted my own way all the time. The training that I've learned in relationships from the stage has made me more judicious about how I can work through problem-solving with an individual or a team and be that flexible, transparent leader that I really want to be. That has translated directly to the bottom line of our company, to the retention of staff on the team, and for us all being able to grow together and create a healthy culture. It's not perfect, but leaning into what I've been able to glean from all of these years of being a performer has definitely made me a director in my own life and for my business who is able to hold a vision that moves us all forward. Now, turning your hobby into a business and gleaning the skills as a leader from the stage, those are what I've gotten really specifically from my serious leisure pursuits. But there is more available than that. We have endless expression for what our hobbies can provide in our businesses. And Charles's story is about another avenue of leadership and business opportunity that opened up for him in his serious leisure pursuit of fly fishing.

Charles Boinske

The genesis of fly fishing and business merging together was a desire to get to know some of the clients I had better. The people that I was attracted to happened to be interested in the outdoors. But talk would eventually turn to fishing and the question would be asked, “Well, where do you fish?” and, “Have you ever fished here?” and, “If you don't know this area, I'd be happy to take you in.” So it's just sort of started one person at a time, going with one person fishing and then maybe two. And then it built itself over the years to having, every winter, a dinner where we invite a luminary from the fly fishing world, some famous fly fisherman, man or woman, to present to the group. We would have a big dinner in King of Prussia with 125 people, and we would not mention business, not one iota. It was all about fishing. I think there was some trepidation among some of the attendees that we invited thinking this was going to be a sales pitch. And it was. It was a sales pitch for fly fishing and nothing else. And so the authenticity of that, of just wanting to further this sport for the sake of the environment, and for the sake of people's leisure, health, and all the things that you think are important, it just blossomed. So it became clear that the next step would be for us to create an association. So we created the Warriors Mark, which is the local stream, Warriors Mark Fly Fishing Association. There are no dues, and you don't have to even fly fish to be a part of it. You just have to say, “I'd like to be in.” It's the most democratic, egalitarian sort of organization there is. But people like to be part of a community, and the enthusiasm and passion around fly fishing is so contagious and infectious that it creates this force of its own. So during COVID, given that people had limited options, the local streams became very full of anglers. And that's a problem if you want to have time to yourself and be on your own. So we solved that issue by leveraging some of the relationships that I developed over the years and finding a piece of ground where we could lease the stream for a year and make it available only to people who were invited to fish there. So it would never be crowded. You would be the only person fishing on this stream. It gives you a place to recharge. It was extremely successful to the extent we've done it another year. We don't charge anybody to fish there. You don't have to be a client of the firm. You just have to need some peace and quiet, and we'll make it available to you and you can go fish. So I've always found that there are sort of two things that have to be true. You need to be able to do this, whatever “this” is because it speaks to you in some way, not because you think it's the way that you're going to grow your business. It may turn out to be a way that you grow your business, but it has to be authentic. It has to be something that you're passionate about, that you're going to do regardless, at least in my experience. And then secondarily, I think, from my perspective, having a bright line between turning it into a marketing event, quote, unquote, for your business, versus just an experience for people that you care about, you need to be careful about that. I've always drawn a very sharp line between talking about business and fishing. Fishing is fishing. It may lead to business but fishing is fishing and business is business.

Tina Dietz 

Enjoyment, sharing, community, mutually beneficial relationships, all of that sounds a lot better than the hustle and grind, doesn't it? And what a beautiful opportunity to bring more of our authentic selves into our work rather than dividing our identity between a work self and a personal self. I can tell you from personal experience and from all the companies and leaders I've worked with across 30 industries or so, trying to wear a superhero mask at work every damn day is a recipe for burnout. And if you have a team, they know you're not really being yourself, so how can they bring all of themselves to their work, either? Charles has really good advice about integrating all of who you are into your leadership.

Charles Boinske 

I have seen too many people reach the age of retirement and not have interests outside of work. Just in my line of work, I've seen that too frequently. So for your own personal self-interest, developing a broad range of interests, otherwise, your identity becomes attached to your business or your profession, and we all know that has to end at some point. So that's the first thing. Second thing is, from my selfish perspective, I believe that when I spend time with someone on a trout stream or on a fishing trip, I really get to understand who that person is and what makes them tick. So when it comes time to advise them about a certain issue, if they happen to be a client, the ability to communicate on that issue is at a different level. There's already so much trust developed through both professional and personal interaction, that it makes your ability to offer advice much more effective. And then from your team's perspective, I think as a leader, you need to set the example of being passionate. There are too many folks that go through life, unfortunately, without a real passion. Showing through example how you use your hobby or your sport or your interest to your own personal advantage when it comes to decompressing and being present when you need to be present in the office, I think, is a very valuable example to set. Being authentic, taking the risk of sharing who you are with your colleagues and your clients and professionals in your industry is an extremely hard thing to do for a lot of people. But it's extremely important to leaders. You need to wear who you are on your sleeve. That's the most important thing I would share with younger folks, early career people. Just be authentic, be who you are, don't be afraid to share your interests, and I think the rewards that come from doing so can be really significant both on the personal and professional level. No one wants to be led by someone who doesn't take the risk of sharing who they really are.

Tina Dietz 

Take the risk of sharing who you really are and bring your whole self to your leadership. How do you feel about that notion? Does it feel vulnerable or weak or strange? Being truly and fully authentic is a powerful concept, and the idea brings up questions like, who the heck are we, really? And how do we find identity and belonging in a world that often seems uncertain, at best? How can we learn to embrace all of who we are, warts and all, and not just be a leader or be a boss, but be someone who is truly worth listening to. These are the conversations and topics we'll be exploring further in season two. So make sure that you follow us on your favorite podcast platform so you know when we're back and it's time once again for us to gather around the well for more stories and wisdom. Remember, you can get the discussion guide for this episode, along with transcripts, show notes, and more resources at DrinkFromTheWellPodcast.com

Thanks for joining us. Drink From The Well is an original production of Twin Flames Studios and produced by our magical team, including Stephen George, Nadia Cox, Alayna Carley, and me, Tina Dietz. Special thanks to David White for lending his amazing voice talent to our episode today, and to my mom, Christine Zebrowski, for getting on tape my very first time holding a microphone when I was 23 months old.

About our Guest Experts – Serious Leaders Need Serious Leisure

Charles Boinske, CFA, is a distinguished financial professional and visionary leader serving as the Chief Visionary Officer at Modera Wealth Management. With over 36 years of experience in the finance industry, Charles has earned a reputation for his dedication to empowering clients and colleagues alike. As a Certified Financial Analyst (CFA), Charles brings a wealth of financial expertise to his role, underpinned by a commitment to helping individuals and organizations achieve their financial goals.

Jennifer (Jen) Coyne is a consultant, coach, trainer, and speaker focusing on improving organizational cultures and helping people find and live their most authentic life. Jen has long had an entrepreneurial and creative energy, including a love for creating fused glass art. In business, she has applied that spirit to leading change for 25 years. Helping people thrive is her passion and her reason for creating The PEAK Fleet.

Julie Ulstrup is an award-winning leader, photographer, and transformational speaker. Ulstrup is the CEO of Leadership Accelerator for Women, helping high achieving women leverage their leadership skills to collapse the time it takes to get from where they are now to where they want to be.

Episode Featured Resources

Modera Wealth Management

The PEAK FLEET

Leadership Accelerator for Women

And check out these resources to the right from some of our Author Thought Leaders around the impact of leisure.

Leaders’ Discussion Guide – Serious Leaders Need Serious Leisure:

How to prepare to lead this discussion session with your team:
  1. Reflect on your own experience with serious leisure or passionate hobbies and how they may have influenced your professional life. Be open and honest about your personal journey.
Questions to discuss WITH your team about serious leisure pursuits:
  1. Have them listen to the episode first to create common ground and context for the conversation.
  2. Ask each team member to briefly share if they have a serious leisure pursuit or passionate hobby outside of work. If not, they can share what interests they would like to explore in their leisure time.
  3. Encourage team members to share how their own hobbies or serious leisure pursuits have affected their well-being, stress management, and overall happiness. Discuss the idea that these pursuits can provide energy rather than drain it.
  4. ADVANCED: Ask team members to share one actionable step they will take to embrace their authentic selves at work or explore a new serious leisure pursuit. Encourage accountability and support within the team.

Inspired to turn your Voice into influence and become a Thought Leader worth listening to?

Let's Talk

Leading With Influence and Compassion, Not Just Management and Instruction

By Chris O'Byrne, CEO of JetLaunch Publishing

Two men working together at a desk

Leadership is no longer limited to a position or title. It’s a dynamic interaction that relies heavily on influence and compassion and goes beyond mere management and instruction. As industries evolve, the characteristics that make for successful leadership are changing, and the role of a leader is being redefined.

A leader’s influence includes authority over team members and the ability to inspire, motivate and guide them toward common goals. It’s about understanding individual team member’s unique strengths and needs and leveraging them to align with the organization’s vision.

Compassionate leadership adds another layer to this intricate balance. It recognizes the human side of business and knows that empathy, caring, and a genuine interest in the well-being of others can create a more positive and productive work environment. Combining influence and compassion in leadership goes beyond the traditional approach and paves the way for a more human and practical leadership style.

Building Influence in Leadership

Influence in leadership is an important trait that impacts how leaders manage their teams, interact with peers, and contribute to the organization’s success. Knowing how to cultivate and exercise influence is critical for seasoned professionals, especially those on the path from success to prominence.

Understanding influence

Influence isn’t just about wielding power or control; it’s also about knowing how to lead, inspire, and create positive change. It’s about being a role model, shaping opinions, and achieving results that align with the organization’s values and goals.

The importance of influence in leadership

Influence plays a critical role in leadership, helping to align teams around common goals, foster collaboration, build trust, and establish stable professional relationships. Effectively influencing others can make the difference between simple management and authentic leadership.

Methods for building influence

Building influence requires a combination of skills, behaviors, and strategies. These include clear communication, consistent action, integrity, active listening, and empathy. Building influence doesn’t happen overnight; it requires continuous effort, practice, and self-reflection.

Challenges in building influence

Like any complex skill, building influence has its challenges. These include overcoming skepticism, navigating organizational politics, or dealing with conflicting interests. To successfully build influence, it’s important to understand and prepare for these challenges.

Influence and ethical considerations

The use of influence must be based on ethical principles. This includes respecting the autonomy of others, being transparent, acting with integrity, and ensuring that influence is used for positive outcomes that align with company values.

Measure and evaluate influence

Measuring influence can be complex, but looking at results, feedback, team engagement, and alignment with business goals can provide valuable insights. Regular assessments and adjustments help to continually improve and build your influence.

Building influence is an essential component of effective leadership, including understanding, meaning, methods, challenges, ethics, and evaluation. Developing this capability helps leaders inspire teams, drive positive change, overcome challenges, and contribute to the organization’s overall success. This multi-faceted approach requires ongoing effort and commitment but is important for anyone seeking to build their authority and influence.

Compassionate Leadership

Compassionate Leadership is a philosophy that combines empathy, understanding, and genuine care for employees with the tasks and goals of the leader. In the following, we address the most important facets:

Understanding and empathy for employees

Actively listening to employees and being present is the essence of compassionate leadership. Understanding what your team members are saying, their challenges, and what they want and responding with empathy fosters a sense of appreciation and connection within the team.

Create a culture of well-being

Compassionate leaders value work-life balance and create an environment that promotes mental and physical health. They recognize the importance of well-being to overall performance and productivity and work proactively to create a positive atmosphere.

Recognition and appreciation

Recognizing and appreciating team members’ accomplishments is vital in compassionate leadership. Regular feedback, positive reinforcement, and celebrating successes large and small contribute to a strong sense of accomplishment and belonging.

Leading with authenticity and vulnerability

Authenticity in leadership fosters trust, and showing vulnerability makes leaders more approachable. Genuine interactions and a willingness to admit mistakes can build a deeper connection with team members and enhance the overall leadership experience.

Mentoring and supporting professional development

Compassionate leadership includes investing in personal development plans and providing opportunities and resources for success. These efforts demonstrate a genuine interest in individual success and professional development and align with the organization’s overall goals.

The far-reaching impact of compassionate leadership

Compassionate leadership impacts the workplace, community engagement, and organizational reputation. A compassionate approach often leads to long-term employee loyalty and contributes to the stability and success of the organization.

Compassionate leadership goes beyond mere management and recognizes that organizations are made up of people with individual needs and emotions. Compassionate leaders create an environment where individuals thrive by focusing on empathy, well-being, recognition, authenticity, and growth. This humane and effective approach fits perfectly with modern business values and can be a critical factor in a company’s success.

Practical tips for building influence through empathetic leadership

Building influence through empathetic leadership is a delicate balance that, when done right, can lead to remarkable results in an organization. Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman has been influential in understanding empathy in leadership (Goleman, D. 1995. “Emotional Intelligence.” New York: Bantam Books).

Here are some practical tips:

Build trust through transparency and integrity

Trust is the foundation of influence, and leaders can foster it through transparency and integrity. Honest communication and consistent action help employees feel safe and aligned with their leaders’ vision.

Empathy and connection with team members

Part of being an empathetic leader is understanding your team members and connecting with them personally. Leaders can create meaningful connections that increase their impact by showing genuine interest in their well-being and professional development.

Set clear goals and expectations

Clear goals and expectations help team members understand their roles and responsibilities. A shared vision promotes alignment and enables effective collaboration, strengthening the leader’s influence on the team.

Lead by example

Leaders who lead by example set a positive standard for the team. They demonstrate commitment and integrity by aligning with the team’s values and expectations, further strengthening their influence.

Promoting collaboration and open communication

Encouraging collaboration and open communication within the team creates a supportive environment where ideas can flourish. Leaders who actively engage with their teams foster creativity and problem-solving, key influence components.

Invest in professional development

Investing in team members’ professional development shows that the leader values their growth and success. Offering training and development opportunities can foster loyalty and engagement and strengthen the leader’s influence.

Meet challenges with empathy and determination

Meeting challenges with empathy and determination builds team resilience. Leaders who address problems with empathy and determination demonstrate strength and compassion, strengthening their influence.

Building influence through compassionate leadership is a multi-faceted approach that requires commitment, empathy, clarity, leading by example, collaboration, investment in growth, and resilience. By focusing on these practical tips, leaders can cultivate powerful influence that resonates with their teams and contributes positively to organizational success.

Wrapping it up

Leading through influence combined with the principles of compassionate leadership is a powerful paradigm for modern leadership. This article has shown that influence is about understanding, inspiring, and creating positive change. Compassion adds depth to this influence by recognizing the intrinsic value of people in the workplace and treating employees with empathy and care.

Experienced professionals will find practical strategies for integrating influence and compassion into their leadership style in this article. The path to success has many facets, from building trust and rapport with team members to setting clear goals and investing in professional development. It requires dedication, authenticity, empathy, and ethical consideration. Read The Speed of Trust by Stephen M.R. Covey (Covey, S.M.R. 2006. New York: Free Press) to learn more.

The fusion of influence and compassion creates an effective human leadership approach. It recognizes that people with individual needs, emotions, and aspirations drive organizations. Leaders who take these principles to heart can inspire their teams, drive innovation, foster long-term loyalty, and contribute positively to organizational success.

Even as the business world evolves, influence and compassionate leadership principles remain relevant. They are consistent with today’s values and timeless qualities for those seeking to build authority, influence, and prominence in their industry. By embodying these principles, leaders make themselves successful and contribute to a more empathetic and innovative business world.

What most surprised you, or what do you still want to know? Let us know your thoughts below!

More About Chris O'Byrne

Chris O'Byrne is the CEO of JetLaunch Publishing and COO of the Strategic Advisor Board. He makes leaders influential by turning them into international bestselling authors and featuring them on the cover of Pivot, a leading business magazine that reaches over 30 million people.|

If you want to learn more about Jess Todtfeld, you can visit his company's website here.

Chris O'Byrne Headshot